an archaic Kalis

[Spunjer]

here's an unusual kalis. been looking for one of these diminutive pommel/short blade for awhile, then BOOM! this baby showed up.
it has a miniaturized ivory pommel that look similar to VVV's miniature kris (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=5834). odd thing about this is, the left side of the pommel has a complete appendage, whereas the right side looks like it cracked while it was shaped and instead of fixing it, it was stuffed with thin ivory pieces to cover the boo-boo. size-wise, the blade is only 16.5" long and an inch wide, an inch longer that VVV's, but i think these two came from the same era. the scabbard is in bisayan fashion, which was a latter addition. the scabbard itself is old, based on the hanger attached to the throat. the bottom shell wrap is missing. another odd feature is the surface of the blade. it looks like lamination, but then again it might just be imperfection on the the metal that was used.

while we're on this topic, here's what i don't understand: why is it that the elephant's truck/eagle beak on these so called archaics are similar that if we have to go by cato's book, they are all sulu? if these are indeed the percursor of the longer krises, then is it safe to say all krises were made in Sulu and some were imported to mindanao (highly unlikely), or were all the krises had similar elephant's trunk/eagle beak design? if that's the case, when did the Mindanaoans deviated to have their own design? or are these so-called archaic krises are just another type of the myriad designs the Moros of yore had in their arsenal?

discuss...

[Battara]

Yeah Ron, I have wondered the same things.

In fact I would add to that the ganga line - most of these archaic forms do not have a straight ganga line but one that tips at an angle. Hmmmm.......

Anyway, nice piece with a very small head. Are the ivory pieces Jed together?

I also thought I saw some lamination in the blade, although it could be be lighting.

[kai]

Hello Ron,

Thanks for posting your find! A lot of really good questions - not too many answers, I'm afraid...

it has a miniaturized ivory pommel that look similar to VVV's miniature kris (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=5834). odd thing about this is, the left side of the pommel has a complete appendage, whereas the right side looks like it cracked while it was shaped and instead of fixing it, it was stuffed with thin ivory pieces to cover the boo-boo. size-wise, the blade is only 16.5" long and an inch wide, an inch longer that VVV's, but i think these two came from the same era. the scabbard is in bisayan fashion, which was a latter addition. the scabbard itself is old, based on the hanger attached to the throat. the bottom shell wrap is missing. another odd feature is the surface of the blade. it looks like lamination, but then again it might just be imperfection on the the metal that was used.

Have you etched it already? I'm sure you can get more out of it, if you try!

I'm not sure that yours and Michael's kalis are from the same period. From the looks I think yours may be a later example.

I'm inserting a quote from almost 5 years ago which still seems a valid question.

Originally Posted by kai

Yes, I agree that our current working hypotheses need to be very critically examined, especially due to the scarcity of dated examples.

Most archaic Moro kris with obvious age (from wear, provenance, etc.) have a minute kink (at roughly 45 deg.) like Rick's left piece above or those upper 2 shown by Cato in Fig. 44. Also Alan's piece does seem to have had such a hardly noticeable protrusion. I've seen blades which have a perfect minute curve and a rectangular protrusion instead, respectively.

Then there are examples with a larger protrusion like the lower piece in Cato's Fig. 44 or even larger protrusions (like in Michael's piece). Especially the latter are pretty much in line what we'd consider to be 19th century pieces from later Moro kris style blades.

Since this "archaic kris" style seems to have been into production till the early 20th century at least (the latter examples seem to show similar lower skills as in other Moro kris blades), my main question would be which criteria can be used to tell wether any given "archaic" blade is really old, intermediate, even more recent (like 1895-1930)... I realize that Mabagani and others have reasons to believe that Cato underestimated the age - this would just shift the dating (not affecting the discussion wether we can estimate from the features of a blade to which age-class it belongs).

Are there examples with a more 19th c. gangya which show wear and/or greneng consistent with the oldest pieces?

Any "straight" gangya pieces with elaborate greneng similar to Michael's piece above? (Rick's left blade exhibits about the maximum greneng I've seen, I guess.)

Regards,
Kai

while we're on this topic, here's what i don't understand: why is it that the elephant's truck/eagle beak on these so called archaics are similar that if we have to go by cato's book, they are all sulu? if these are indeed the percursor of the longer krises, then is it safe to say all krises were made in Sulu and some were imported to mindanao (highly unlikely), or were all the krises had similar elephant's trunk/eagle beak design? if that's the case, when did the Mindanaoans deviated to have their own design? or are these so-called archaic krises are just another type of the myriad designs the Moros of yore had in their arsenal?

I seem to remember a few archaic kris that were from Mindanao rather than from Sulu (judging from the "face" design). I'll hit my archives after the holidays.

I believe that the preponderance of the Sulu type is most likely due to:
1. this design being most popular during the early period (possibly utilized throughout the region rather than limited to Sulu);
2. this type of kris continuing to be more commonly crafted throughout the Sulu sphere of influence vs. getting obsolete or out-of-vogue on Mindanao (at least until a possible later revival period).


Moreover, it seems worth to note that the "face" designs typically found with kris from Mindanao are neither Maranao nor Maguindanao inventions. All can be traced back to designs already in use with Sulu kris that only got modified (mainly by merely reducing the angle) to create the looks typical for Mindanao kris!

Regards,
Kai

[Rick]

Perhaps we need to look at the direction of the spread of the Malay peoples (keris bearing cultures) throughout the Philippine Archipelago ?

Somewhere in my readings I had gotten the impression that it began in the far South .
That area is closest to Borneo, is it not ?

[Spunjer]

thanks for everyone's response so far...

i'm posting a provenanced "archaic" kris that was purchased in Mindanao around december of 1899. the question would be, was this piece old (as in over a century old) when it was purchased? or was it purchased new? notice the how the black inlay is perfectly intact. btw, as a side note, there were other weapons that was purchased with this particular kris, including a huge Junggayan kalis and a gasah. i believe on one of the tags, it was stated that it was purchased in a marketplace. please understand though, that the officer that bought these weapons was one of the first americans that was sent by the Army to Mindanao to negotiate with the Moros, so it begs the question: if they bought these weapons in an open market, then who were the intended customers of these enterprising moros? it's hard to imagine that there would be lots visiting spaniards and filipinos from up north visiting these marketplaces...
anyway, back to the topic:
i did the hot water test on it and it does appear that it might be laminated. i might have to etch it sometimes in the future and will post it then.
jose, regarding your inquiry whether the ivory were pieced together: no, they are not. it's just that on the side were the appendage broke off, it appears like that area was filled in with pieces of ivory. weird, really...
Kai, keen observation there! i would love to see the mindanao version. i'm still looking for that post in which mabagani mentioned on how the kris became the unifying symbol of the Moros during Kudarat's era.
rick, you have a good point there, but how fast did this particular type of sword spread throughout the Moroland? one generation? two? just thinking out loud...

[Rick]

Yep, thinking out loud myself, Ron .
Trying to figure out the kris's point of entry into Philippine culture; or the Kris Culture's point of entry into the Philippines .

I'm up too late, I think .

[VVV]

Nice that you got this beauty.
I also watched it but it was too expensive to ship it to Europe in case I had won it.
It seems like Sulu has kept the oldest form of trunk/beak.
It's interesting that this is the most common form found in Peninsular Malaysia, too.
Why it is so needs to be researched more, of course...

Michael

[Sajen]

Very nice kalis you have got!

I think the main question was pointed out from Rick in post # 6.


Regards,

Detlef

[Spunjer]

thanks Detlef. it's still an ongoing debate as to the point of entry, although rick's statement is a strong possibility, in that it started down south. michael made a good point too, about how sulu's form is similar to peninsular malaysia and indonesia.
also, been thinking about the gangya line: is it safe to say that straight gangya lines are old, but not inclusive, meaning there were some that were made that has a slant at the end? perhaps the straight line was abandoned after a certain point. if that's the case then, krises with straight gangya can be safely assumed that it's of older variety?

[Battara]

Let's just say that I have seen older ones with everything right except the straight ganga line.