Persian Qajar Dagger

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by Dom

Hi Gene
last ruler "Qajar" ; 16 juillet 1909 - 31 octobre 1925 : Ahmad Shah
that mean not more than 110 years ... generation for my parents (father/mother) ... modern time
in absence of "johar" I should have ignored this dagger ...
but it's not "modern" this "johar" or an "Indian duplicate"

also the "patina" on weapons less than 300/400 years, it's more grime than something "noble"
I respect too much, all those edged weapons, and I can't display here, a weapons not "cleaned" ...

anyway, thanks to have criticized and argumented your remarks

regards

à +

Dom

Hi Dom,

The chiselled steel of the hilt and scabbard is first rate. Very nice work.

When you say 'Johar' do you use the term to mean Wootz or pattern welded steel?
The blade on your attractive dagger appears to be layered steel, 'semi' pattern welded. Midway between visible wide waves of lamination and the fully realised "raindrops" of the pattern below.

Do you mean that you have fully cleaned the 'patina' off of the dagger?

ATB
G

P.S. it's not meant to be "criticism" Dom.
Some nice ear-rings in that link BTW

[Atlantia]

Hi Dom,

Cross posting via edits!
I agree that the daggers in that thread are in superb condition.

But I still see much ageing and patina that I do not see on yours.

When I think of late Qajar Khanjar I think of them being more akin to this form:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=16020

The attachment loops on your example reminds me of Arabian Jambiya.
The flat ground oval/diamond section blade with the more simple carved deoration and two colour koftgari look Indian (and show only minimal wear to the silver).
The more complex decoration of the scabbard and hilt have an indo-persian feel but exhibit no patina/oxidisation in the recesses and in general the piece seems like a 'fusion' of styles. but a distinctly 'Indian' feel IMVHO.

I'm certain I've seen another somewhere. I just can't recollect where.
Can you reference this type to dated examples?

[Dom]

with .. one stone, I'll shoot two birds

Originally Posted by Atlantia

P.S. it's not meant to be "criticism" Dom.
Some nice ear-rings in that link BTW

the perpetual misunderstanding (joke) between "froggy" and "roast-beef"
about "criticize" there are two kinds; negatives and positives
it was the last one, was going my comments
we have two languages, very close to each one, but some terms very similar leave the place to some light different interpretation

don't speak too much about ear-rings, when you said nice,
the word is weak, but if my wife saw that ...
it's me at this moment I will be a weak man

concerning, second post ...

Originally Posted by Atlantia

When I think of late Qajar Khanjar I think of them being more akin to this form:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=16020

yes it's a "Qajar" khanjar, but due to miss care, his condition is very poor, oxidation and pitting due to rust, not to his age
a "noble" patina, as far as I know, must be "green" or "brown"

Originally Posted by Atlantia

The attachment loops on your example reminds me of Arabian Jambiya.
The flat ground oval/diamond section blade with the more simple carved deoration and two colour koftgari look Indian (and show only minimal wear to the silver).

I don't denied that there is a very strong influence between, Persia and India
I have an other Persian khanjar, same era, with a oval/diamond section blade, not "johar", and not Indian,
but it's need a serious refurbishing, that means this type of blade wasn't rare (pic attached)

Originally Posted by Atlantia

The more complex decoration of the scabbard and hilt have an indo-persian feel but exhibit no patina/oxidisation in the recesses and in general the piece seems like a 'fusion' of styles. but a distinctly 'Indian' feel IMVHO.

you mean by that, an edged weapon, without rust (please don't talk about patina, you know my POV ), and plenty dirt, must be a modern production ... interesting ...
but I don't share the concept

Originally Posted by Atlantia

I'm certain I've seen another somewhere. I just can't recollect where.
Can you reference this type to dated examples?

the dating for the Qajar Dynasty era, it's the most simple, because recent, and very well documented
1st Qajar - 1786 - juin 1797 : Agha Mohammad Shah
last Qajar - 16 juillet 1909 - 31 octobre 1925 : Ahmad Shah
nothing before, and nothing after

by the way, I think to have identified the kind of "johar" with the book "Swords & Armour" "weapons of the Islamic World",
and I'm not to much convince that the wootz, of my blade it's the same, that you show

I love that kind of exchange,
very good opportunity to argument, in function of our reciprocal knowledge, and sensibility, thank you Gene

à +

Dom

[VANDERNOTTE]

some one are luky...... nice present por chrismas
congratulation don magnifica pieca
regard
jacques

[Dom]

Originally Posted by VANDERNOTTE

some one are luky...... nice present por chrismas
congratulation don magnifica pieca
regard
jacques

Thanks Jacques, I guess that it's one of my best dagger
sometime, it's good to be a lucky guy
but, you haven't to complain, either, with all that you showed us

with some days in advance; Merry X-Mas and "Bonne Année"

à +

Dom

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by Dom

with .. one stone, I'll shoot two birds
the perpetual misunderstanding (joke) between "froggy" and "roast-beef"
about "criticize" there are two kinds; negatives and positives
it was the last one, was going my comments
we have two languages, very close to each one, but some terms very similar leave the place to some light different interpretation

don't speak too much about ear-rings, when you said nice,
the word is weak, but if my wife saw that ...
it's me at this moment I will be a weak man

concerning, second post ...


yes it's a "Qajar" khanjar, but due to miss care, his condition is very poor, oxidation and pitting due to rust, not to his age
a "noble" patina, as far as I know, must be "green" or "brown"

I don't denied that there is a very strong influence between, Persia and India
I have an other Persian khanjar, same era, with a oval/diamond section blade, not "johar", and not Indian,
but it's need a serious refurbishing, that means this type of blade wasn't rare (pic attached)

you mean by that, an edged weapon, without rust (please don't talk about patina, you know my POV ), and plenty dirt, must be a modern production ... interesting ...
but I don't share the concept


the dating for the Qajar Dynasty era, it's the most simple, because recent, and very well documented
1st Qajar - 1786 - juin 1797 : Agha Mohammad Shah
last Qajar - 16 juillet 1909 - 31 octobre 1925 : Ahmad Shah
nothing before, and nothing after

by the way, I think to have identified the kind of "johar" with the book "Swords & Armour" "weapons of the Islamic World",
and I'm not to much convince that the wootz, of my blade it's the same, that you show

I love that kind of exchange,
very good opportunity to argument, in function of our reciprocal knowledge, and sensibility, thank you Gene

à +

Dom

Hi Dom,

Patination, wear, signs of age....
"Patina" is often defined as verdigris or oxidisation, but it can just as easily be the accrued hand grease, dust and wax polish on a piece of wood furniture or the natural contrast of darkening and polishing that decades of handling and cleaning creates on a piece of steel that has never been left to rust or been mistreated.

The reason I don't use terms like 'johar' is that not every person uses them in the same context. Like 'damascus' or 'watered' which is why I asked for confirmation of what you meant.
I find these terms most confusing
So I always try to use the terms that are open to the 'least' interpretation:
Wootz, Mechanical wootz, Laminated steel, pattern welded etc.

So you see your blade as wootz and not pattern welded?

Lets see what others think. As always, I'm as happy to be wrong as I am to be right! As long as my knowledge is increased

[Battara]

My understanding of patina is the oxidation on the surface that is not corrosive.

[Dom]

Originally Posted by Battara

My understanding of patina is the oxidation on the surface that is not corrosive.

YES SIR
otherwise, the other things are;
stains, rust, dirt, ultimately ... shit ...

here a serial of pics, it's a "shula" dagger from Morocco
not a great value, but for me not a reason to don't respected it

at least, I like it more after be refurbished;
- some linseed oil for the handle, to feed the ram's horn
- polishing copper
- some wax to feed the leather of the scabbard
- with very fine steel wool pad, cleaning of the blade, then treatment with "Renaissance" products to prevent the corrosion

I don't feel that I'm destroying the marks of the past, it's just to restore a dignity, it would NEVER ... have lost

à +

Dom

[A.alnakkas]

I have seen this on ebay and wanted to bid on it. The craftmanship is excellent and Dom is right, it did have patina in the auction photos if I remember correctly.

Now the decoration is defintly good and the blade appears to be well made certainly not like the new indian stuff but the shape of the whole piece is unlike any Qajar piece I have seen..

It is possible that its Indian work but real work, not touristy. One thing for sure Indians borrow art from Persians so its all possible.

[Dom]

Originally Posted by Atlantia

So you see your blade as wootz and not pattern welded?

Lets see what others think. As always, I'm as happy to be wrong as I am to be right! As long as my knowledge is increased

as per as the doc with me ... yes
"Qara Kharasan" or either "Qara Toban Johar"

but I'm agree with you, lets the other "fox" express their opinions

and I hope so that some distinguished "Farsi" translator will have a look on it

because as far as it's not in Arabic, it's not a religious mention,

if it's a poem, I'll be frustrated, may be an indication about his owner,
I doubt about that unfortunately, but nearly X-Mas ... might be a miracle ??

all the best

à +

Dom

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by Dom

as per as the doc with me ... yes
"Qara Kharasan" or either "Qara Toban Johar"

but I'm agree with you, lets the other "fox" express their opinions

and I hope so that some distinguished "Farsi" translator will have a look on it

because as far as it's not in Arabic, it's not a religious mention,

if it's a poem, I'll be frustrated, may be an indication about his owner,
I doubt about that unfortunately, but nearly X-Mas ... might be a miracle ??

all the best

à +

Dom

LOL! "tis the season"!

Happy Xmas mate.