Battered Datu Kris for comment - restoration tips needed

Bill · 24th September 2005, 01:09 PM

nice old kris. the pictures make it hard to tell the real condition. even hand poishing with light abrasive compond may pull up rust deteriorated metal particles that might scratch the inlay, if your not carefull. You might try buying a soft cotton mop, put the handle in a vise, so that the strings hang freely. streak one side with a fine abasive compond and the other with final polish. Componds contain silica and should not be inhaled, wear leather gloves so you don't cut yourself. if you keep changing where you insert the sword into the mop head, you are less likely to cause scratches; the tips of the mop can be used for working certain areas. Good Luck, post some pics when you are done.

kai · 24th September 2005, 03:54 PM

Hi Bill,

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill

nice old kris. the pictures make it hard to tell the real condition.

Would larger but slower loading pics be preferred by most members? 800 pixels width allow easier reading/printing of the text but using higher resolution (150 dpi?) would allow zooming in if needed.

Quote:

even hand poishing with light abrasive compond may pull up rust deteriorated metal particles that might scratch the inlay, if your not carefull.

Ok, I'll be extra careful. The inlay area will only need light polishing anyway - it's the tip (or maybe a third of the blade) which needs more work.

Quote:

You might try buying a soft cotton mop, put the handle in a vise, so that the strings hang freely.

So the long side of the mop is parallel to the floor and its surface vertical, so that the strings hang down (on top of each other) or is the mop's surface pointing to the ground (i.e. normal working position)?

Quote:

streak one side with a fine abasive compond and the other with final polish.

Please explain! (The mops I'm thinking of have only a single working surface and loading freely hanging strings with differing compounds sounds weird... What I'm missing here?)

Quote:

Good Luck, post some pics when you are done.

Thanks, I'll surely post pics of the finished blade! And possibly pics of any intermediate stages if I come up with more questions...

Regards,
Kai

Rick · 24th September 2005, 04:45 PM

Hello Kai , here is one example of fairly simple silver braiding .

As for increasing your images to 150dpi wouldn't this adversely affect the dimensions of the images you can upload ?

Bill · 24th September 2005, 06:51 PM

My thoughts of the mop is that the fiber are woven, and tiny pieces of metal will either go into the indentions or fall;+lots of surface on all those strings,& cheap. You can buy all different degree's of compounds-cutting,pre-polish,&polishing. Once you mix them you only have the coursest. Put one in one area & another one in a different area, using the courser one first. While a moderatly abrasive like "tripoli" may be fine for the steel, it won't be gentle on the silver, for your situation. There is probably 20 differant degrees of componds for polishing, alone. Battara, Federico, or anyone else may want to jump in here. Myself, I'm a little worried about how much damage has been done by the rust, you may start to loose some of your surface.

Federico · 24th September 2005, 09:58 PM

The problem I have always had with inlay and restoring kris has been in the etching vs the polishing. The acid can seep underneath the inlay and loosen it, or it can eat away at the thin inlay real fast vs its eat rate for steel. In certain cases, I have used a thin layer of clear nail polish to protect inlay or other fittings (such as asang-asang) when etching. High grit sandpaper (eg. 600, 800, 1000, 1500, 2000, 2500, etc...), is relatively gentle. You could always start at a higher grit. I would just personally avoid over-etching, or long soaks in acid, as it can add a topographical etch, that at least in what I have seen, has not been typical of Moro swords. The polishing compound idea, can work depending on the compound, but there is always a danger that some compounds contain a portective additive that can sometimes create more of a mess than theyre worth (eg. brasso). Jewelers red rouge is nice, and goes a long way. If the rust is isolated in spots, you could just use #0000 steel wool, a gentle hand, and some WD-40 (or other penetratin oil), to clean it off. Anyways, nice kris, and great inlay.

Kai, if you decide to send to Battara for restoration, you may want to think about adding a silver collar underneath the cockatua below, above the wrap.

Battara · 25th September 2005, 08:36 PM

Federico has a very good point on the over etching. Light etching to bring out pamor is fine and won't really affect the inlay. Over etching in the way he describes is for Javanese pieces, etc., and will pop out the inlay (thus I have not seen much in true inlay in Javanese pieces).

Will try to post a Maguindanao datu hilt when I get the chance. A typical Maguindanao hilt might consist of okir bands, top and bottom, and possibly interspaced between wrapped twisted woven bands of silver. Okir bands in this case may mean gold over copper/brass or silver.

kai · 26th September 2005, 02:10 PM

Thanks, Battara!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

Federico has a very good point on the over etching. Light etching to bring out pamor is fine and won't really affect the inlay. Over etching in the way he describes is for Javanese pieces, etc., and will pop out the inlay (thus I have not seen much in true inlay in Javanese pieces).

Sure. I'm more a keris Melayu guy and like to keep a slick looking blade...

Quote:

Will try to post a Maguindanao datu hilt when I get the chance. A typical Maguindanao hilt might consist of okir bands, top and bottom, and possibly interspaced between wrapped twisted woven bands of silver. Okir bands in this case may mean gold over copper/brass or silver.

To keep in line with Moro machismo, I'd probably settle for swaasa rather than gold.

I'm looking forward to seeing more Maguindanao datu hilts!

Regards,
Kai

kai · 26th September 2005, 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Federico

The problem I have always had with inlay and restoring kris has been in the etching vs the polishing. The acid can seep underneath the inlay and loosen it, or it can eat away at the thin inlay real fast vs its eat rate for steel. In certain cases, I have used a thin layer of clear nail polish to protect inlay or other fittings (such as asang-asang) when etching. High grit sandpaper (eg. 600, 800, 1000, 1500, 2000, 2500, etc...), is relatively gentle. You could always start at a higher grit.

Thanks, Federico. I'll try to keep on the safe side...

Quote:

I would just personally avoid over-etching, or long soaks in acid, as it can add a topographical etch, that at least in what I have seen, has not been typical of Moro swords.

There's certainly no topographical etch as of now. For Moro weapons I'm looking more for something like a Balinese finish - smooth steel with a brief final etching to bring out the pamor and darken the blade a bit. In this case that won't work out for the tip (without excessive steel removal) but keeping the blade intact as possible is my primary concern.

Quote:

The polishing compound idea, can work depending on the compound, but there is always a danger that some compounds contain a portective additive that can sometimes create more of a mess than theyre worth (eg. brasso). Jewelers red rouge is nice, and goes a long way.

It certainly pays to get professional polishing compounds rather than undocumented household stuff. I have several grades including pure Tripoli - I'll compare that to similar graded sandpaper.

BTW, did anybody tried oil based polish vs. water based paste?

Quote:

if you decide to send to Battara for restoration,

Someday I'll surely go for a competent silverwork upgrade but money's too tight these days...

Regards,
Kai

kai · 26th September 2005, 02:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill

You can buy all different degree's of compounds-cutting,pre-polish,&polishing. Once you mix them you only have the coursest. Put one in one area & another one in a different area

Ok, now I got it - thanks Bill!

I'll probably use different mops for each compound to be on the safe side.

Quote:

While a moderatly abrasive like "tripoli" may be fine for the steel, it won't be gentle on the silver, for your situation.

The area with the silver inlay doesn't need much polishing - I'll try very fine sandpaper here to avoid digging into the inlay, I guess...

Quote:

Myself, I'm a little worried about how much damage has been done by the rust, you may start to loose some of your surface.

The blade is now free of rust (except for the tang which I'll work on separately) or other loose particles. I realize that I won't get back a smooth tip and am going to keep polishing (and associated abrasion) to a minimum.

Regards,
Kai

kai · 26th September 2005, 01:45 AM

Hi Rick,

Thanks for the pic!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

As for increasing your images to 150dpi wouldn't this adversely affect the dimensions of the images you can upload ?

No, I can upload larger files but tried to keep them as small as possible so that loading a thread doesn't take too long. I'm still in an experimental phase and not yet satisfied with the quality of the pics shown by me...

Regards,
Kai

Rick · 26th September 2005, 01:50 AM

Keep in mind the average dpi display of a computer monitor .
Isn't it 70 or so ?

24th September 2005, 04:45 PM	#3
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,347	Hello Kai , here is one example of fairly simple silver braiding . As for increasing your images to 150dpi wouldn't this adversely affect the dimensions of the images you can upload ? Attached Images

24th September 2005, 01:09 PM	#1
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	nice old kris. the pictures make it hard to tell the real condition. even hand poishing with light abrasive compond may pull up rust deteriorated metal particles that might scratch the inlay, if your not carefull. You might try buying a soft cotton mop, put the handle in a vise, so that the strings hang freely. streak one side with a fine abasive compond and the other with final polish. Componds contain silica and should not be inhaled, wear leather gloves so you don't cut yourself. if you keep changing where you insert the sword into the mop head, you are less likely to cause scratches; the tips of the mop can be used for working certain areas. Good Luck, post some pics when you are done.

24th September 2005, 06:51 PM	#4
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	My thoughts of the mop is that the fiber are woven, and tiny pieces of metal will either go into the indentions or fall;+lots of surface on all those strings,& cheap. You can buy all different degree's of compounds-cutting,pre-polish,&polishing. Once you mix them you only have the coursest. Put one in one area & another one in a different area, using the courser one first. While a moderatly abrasive like "tripoli" may be fine for the steel, it won't be gentle on the silver, for your situation. There is probably 20 differant degrees of componds for polishing, alone. Battara, Federico, or anyone else may want to jump in here. Myself, I'm a little worried about how much damage has been done by the rust, you may start to loose some of your surface.

24th September 2005, 09:58 PM	#5
Federico Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Minneapolis, MN, USA Posts: 312	The problem I have always had with inlay and restoring kris has been in the etching vs the polishing. The acid can seep underneath the inlay and loosen it, or it can eat away at the thin inlay real fast vs its eat rate for steel. In certain cases, I have used a thin layer of clear nail polish to protect inlay or other fittings (such as asang-asang) when etching. High grit sandpaper (eg. 600, 800, 1000, 1500, 2000, 2500, etc...), is relatively gentle. You could always start at a higher grit. I would just personally avoid over-etching, or long soaks in acid, as it can add a topographical etch, that at least in what I have seen, has not been typical of Moro swords. The polishing compound idea, can work depending on the compound, but there is always a danger that some compounds contain a portective additive that can sometimes create more of a mess than theyre worth (eg. brasso). Jewelers red rouge is nice, and goes a long way. If the rust is isolated in spots, you could just use #0000 steel wool, a gentle hand, and some WD-40 (or other penetratin oil), to clean it off. Anyways, nice kris, and great inlay. Kai, if you decide to send to Battara for restoration, you may want to think about adding a silver collar underneath the cockatua below, above the wrap.

25th September 2005, 08:36 PM	#6
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,305	Federico has a very good point on the over etching. Light etching to bring out pamor is fine and won't really affect the inlay. Over etching in the way he describes is for Javanese pieces, etc., and will pop out the inlay (thus I have not seen much in true inlay in Javanese pieces). Will try to post a Maguindanao datu hilt when I get the chance. A typical Maguindanao hilt might consist of okir bands, top and bottom, and possibly interspaced between wrapped twisted woven bands of silver. Okir bands in this case may mean gold over copper/brass or silver.

26th September 2005, 01:50 AM	#11
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,347	Keep in mind the average dpi display of a computer monitor . Isn't it 70 or so ?