African Three-Dagger sets

colin henshaw · 9th December 2012, 09:10 AM

Hi

I've read this thread with interest. I've seen a lot of these flimsy, flat bladed Sudanese items with the acid etched "thuluth" over the years, and came to the conclusion that most if not all, were made post Anglo-Egyptian conquest of 1898, for resale to Europeans. As already noted, they are usually fairly crudely made, with blunt edges and I doubt if they were intended as real weapons.

There is a theory that within this genre, similar sheet iron "throwing knives" were made during the Mahdist era, for use by those elements of the Mahdist armies made up of black, non-Islamic warriors. So there is a possibilty these "tourist" items derived from this source - but thats only a theory... I would certainly like to see some hard documentary type of evidence to conclusively solve the origin of these objects.

Question : the sheet iron imported from Europe ??

katana · 9th December 2012, 07:19 PM

I posted this quote before..which suggests the souvenier trade was rife.....unfortunately the link no longer works

,

"....In the Sudan, Major E A De Cosson who served with Sir Gerald Graham's field force at Suakin in April 1888 noted how the local inhabitants entrepreneurially met the demand for souvenirs and war trophies. On the day the expedition was brought to a close, he 'rode into the town in the evening and found the streets thronged with officers buying souvenirs. The native population are waking up to the fact that money is to be made and the women and children offering their silver bangles for sale; shields and swords have run up to ?£5 a piece, and spears to ?£2 or ?£3. There is a little Italian who keeps a curiosity shop, a sort of niche in a wall, and he had new spears manufactured every day. They say an armourer on one of the ships turned an honest penny by making a lot of spear-heads and having them mounted, and that a batch of "real Soudan spears" has already been sent out from Birmingham.'

http://www.michaelstevenson.com/africanart/essay.htm

Regards David

Iain · 9th December 2012, 08:06 PM

Great reference and quote David! Many thanks for posting it, I hadn't run across it before.

The original link may be dead but the Way Back Machine has it!
http://web.archive.org/web/200802071...nart/essay.htm

Lew · 13th December 2012, 11:00 PM

As promised here are two higher quality examples courtesy of Charles.

ariel · 14th December 2012, 11:50 AM

The last one is dated 1125, ie 1713.
Mind if I express mild degree of disbelief? :-)

Lew · 14th December 2012, 10:49 PM

Ariel

Most of these amourers or their apprentices were probably ilitarate so I'm not surprised

9th December 2012, 09:10 AM	#1
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,429	Hi I've read this thread with interest. I've seen a lot of these flimsy, flat bladed Sudanese items with the acid etched "thuluth" over the years, and came to the conclusion that most if not all, were made post Anglo-Egyptian conquest of 1898, for resale to Europeans. As already noted, they are usually fairly crudely made, with blunt edges and I doubt if they were intended as real weapons. There is a theory that within this genre, similar sheet iron "throwing knives" were made during the Mahdist era, for use by those elements of the Mahdist armies made up of black, non-Islamic warriors. So there is a possibilty these "tourist" items derived from this source - but thats only a theory... I would certainly like to see some hard documentary type of evidence to conclusively solve the origin of these objects. Question : the sheet iron imported from Europe ?? Last edited by colin henshaw; 9th December 2012 at 09:43 AM.

13th December 2012, 11:00 PM	#4
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	As promised here are two higher quality examples courtesy of Charles. Attached Images

9th December 2012, 07:19 PM	#2
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	I posted this quote before..which suggests the souvenier trade was rife.....unfortunately the link no longer works , "....In the Sudan, Major E A De Cosson who served with Sir Gerald Graham's field force at Suakin in April 1888 noted how the local inhabitants entrepreneurially met the demand for souvenirs and war trophies. On the day the expedition was brought to a close, he 'rode into the town in the evening and found the streets thronged with officers buying souvenirs. The native population are waking up to the fact that money is to be made and the women and children offering their silver bangles for sale; shields and swords have run up to ?£5 a piece, and spears to ?£2 or ?£3. There is a little Italian who keeps a curiosity shop, a sort of niche in a wall, and he had new spears manufactured every day. They say an armourer on one of the ships turned an honest penny by making a lot of spear-heads and having them mounted, and that a batch of "real Soudan spears" has already been sent out from Birmingham.' http://www.michaelstevenson.com/africanart/essay.htm Regards David

9th December 2012, 08:06 PM	#3
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,719	Great reference and quote David! Many thanks for posting it, I hadn't run across it before. The original link may be dead but the Way Back Machine has it! http://web.archive.org/web/200802071...nart/essay.htm

14th December 2012, 11:50 AM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	The last one is dated 1125, ie 1713. Mind if I express mild degree of disbelief? :-)

14th December 2012, 10:49 PM	#6
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Ariel Most of these amourers or their apprentices were probably ilitarate so I'm not surprised