GELAR PAMERAN KERIS NASIONAL 2012 - short review

satsujinken · 27th November 2012, 06:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I don't think that tangguh itself is so confusing, once we understand the indicators and the parameters that must be applied, as well as the founding logic of tangguh, it is not at all confusing, but it is very true that people are often confused by some of the opinions offered.

As I have commented previously, more than once, at the present time everybody wants to stick a tangguh on everything, and this is not at all what the system was originally designed to do.

I have seen many-many times, what we called "experts" failed to date already known old-keris

on one occasion, one "expert" from Malang is being shown 5 betok keris and he is told in the beginning of the "game" that from 5 keris presented, 2 are original and 3 are fake ... and he failed to point the original one.

I myself have already asked and shared opinions with many person and still thinks that tangguh is somewhat very difficult to discern, a person must have broad knowledge of keris type and characteristics of keris from many areas, possess enough knowledge on metallurgy, have personally handled many many many blades by himself and have direct experience from known master/s to enable himself to provide "non binding" recommendation on how old the blade is

and even then he can still made mistakes

so I came to a conclusion that to have more than 80% of success rate on determining the tangguh, we need to dedicate our lives on this subject

lastly, can we use radio carbon dating to date a keris ?? I have read several papers that this method can be used to determine age of carbon steel materials down to acceptable level of accuracy

satsujinken · 27th November 2012, 07:00 AM

additional pics

Keris dhapur sapokal
pamor : jala rante

satsujinken · 27th November 2012, 07:03 AM

Keris Bethok Sepang
(said to be old, but I doubt it

)

Keris luk 7 Sempana Kinjeng
pamor : wulung (no pamor)

satsujinken · 27th November 2012, 07:06 AM

another interesting pamor

keris luk 9 Sempana
pamor : rambut daradah

satsujinken · 27th November 2012, 07:11 AM

miscellaneous pics

satsujinken · 27th November 2012, 07:14 AM

miscellaneous pics again

satsujinken · 27th November 2012, 07:16 AM

nice pamor

David · 27th November 2012, 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by satsujinken

...lastly, can we use radio carbon dating to date a keris ?? I have read several papers that this method can be used to determine age of carbon steel materials down to acceptable level of accuracy

Carbon dating is a destructive process AFAIK. You would therefore need to damage your blade in order to know the date. Not really a prospect i am willing to consider with my own collection.
I must admit that i do tend to prefer antique keris to new simply because antiquities and past cultures is a strong part of what drives my collecting. I do like to know as much as is possible about my keris historical and i am always pleased when i can place pieces into at least vague eras for time frame purposes. But ultimately i am also pleased simply to be able to enjoy the keris for it's appearances as a weapon/artform. Certainly i would never damage a blade just so i could accurately date it.

Battara · 27th November 2012, 11:39 PM

All these new keris examples have provoked a question for me:

In 100 years how will the keris evolve? What forms will we see in the future?

A. G. Maisey · 28th November 2012, 12:59 AM

The keris has continuously evolved since it first appeared on the scene over 1000 years ago. It is unlikely that it was called a keris back then, but it did possess sufficient of the characteristics of what was later called the keris for it to be recogniseable as one.

From about 1300 through to probably as recently as 1970 or so, the evolution of the keris expressed itself as the periodic appearance of new dhapurs and new pamors, as well as changes to its socio-religious status.

In the early 1980's when the Anak-anak ASKI came on the scene and began to produce new keris dhapurs as works of art, this development came under a lot of fire from the Surakarta traditionalists. The attitude was that if a keris did not conform to an already established dhapur, then it was not a keris. A work of art it might be, even a great work of art, but it could not be a keris.

The reasoning behind this attitude was that the only person who had the authority to approve any new dhapur was the ruler, and in the minds of the Surakarta elite, the only ruler who could possess this authority was the Susuhunan of Surakarta, who was the ruler of the senior branch of the House of Mataram. This attitude can of course generate argument with supporters of other royal houses, so we'll take it as read that there is room for disagreement with this stance.

So those early attempts at keris blade art were to a very great degree regarded as illegitimate.

But in recent years a new wind has blown through the keris world in Indonesia. In line with changes in the political atmosphere, Jack is now as good as his master --- well, almost as good, at least in the eyes of the younger generation, so royal endorsement of dhapurs no longer seems to be necessary.

The hard-core Kejawen traditionalists will undoubtedly continue to adopt the attitude that a dhapur needs to be legitimated by the Ruler before it can be regarded as a proper keris. I must admit, I'm a bit inclined this way myself. There is a lot of ticky-tacky bling out there with new and recent keris creations, it is quite difficult to find good taste and genuine quality, rather than something that just looks great in a photo. I personally much prefer excellence of execution within already established parameters, and my personal guideline is that I will only ever spend money on keris that comply with this.

If we examine Indonesian, and most particularly Javanese social patterns, we find that the society as a whole, and also segments of the society, tend to go through "seasons", where something will become overwhelmingly popular for a while, and then sink into obscurity. I have seen the rise of the keris from virtual obscurity in Jawa during the late 1960's, to become a major art movement at the present time. Based upon what we can observe in the past in this society, I am inclined to believe that right at this moment we are at a tipping point where keris will gradually begin to slide back into obscurity in Indonesia. They will once again become the province of only a few really dedicated and culture conscious people, as they were prior to the explosion of the last few years. From my personal point of view, this is not such a bad thing. When the truth of the keris is finally revealed I believe most culturally aware people will concur with my opinion that there is too much commercialism and too much intensity in the present keris culture.

So, future development?

Probably even more extreme forms, more and more artistic enhancement, and eventually a changing of the seasons.

satsujinken · 28th November 2012, 03:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Carbon dating is a destructive process AFAIK. You would therefore need to damage your blade in order to know the date. Not really a prospect i am willing to consider with my own collection.
I must admit that i do tend to prefer antique keris to new simply because antiquities and past cultures is a strong part of what drives my collecting. I do like to know as much as is possible about my keris historical and i am always pleased when i can place pieces into at least vague eras for time frame purposes. But ultimately i am also pleased simply to be able to enjoy the keris for it's appearances as a weapon/artform. Certainly i would never damage a blade just so i could accurately date it.

I read a bit about radio carbon dating and yes, it is a destructive in terms of small parts must be chiseled out from the blade and destroyed in the process of dating

however, the amount of materials used in this process is now less than 1 g per sample, and even small flake can be used

I am thinking about chiseling small bit of the pesi ...

but once more, the obstacle on this method is in its cost ... the cost of doing the test is around 250 - 750 USD per sample ...

perhaps some of the oldest and most valuable blade can be tested and verified on its age

on other side, this method does have its flaws ... so basically it is back to the owner of the blade itself

regarding my opinion, I would rather spend USD 250 on a nice keris or nice dinner than throw it away to check the age of just one blade

Jean · 28th November 2012, 11:07 AM

Thank you Satsu for the very interesting article about C14 dating of iron artefacts and I will immediately submit my 100,000$ Singosari blades to the age test

27th November 2012, 07:00 AM	#2
satsujinken Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Surabaya - Indonesia Posts: 199	additional pics Keris dhapur sapokal pamor : jala rante Attached Images

27th November 2012, 07:03 AM	#3
satsujinken Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Surabaya - Indonesia Posts: 199	Keris Bethok Sepang (said to be old, but I doubt it ) Keris luk 7 Sempana Kinjeng pamor : wulung (no pamor) Attached Images

27th November 2012, 07:06 AM	#4
satsujinken Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Surabaya - Indonesia Posts: 199	another interesting pamor keris luk 9 Sempana pamor : rambut daradah Attached Images

27th November 2012, 07:11 AM	#5
satsujinken Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Surabaya - Indonesia Posts: 199	miscellaneous pics Attached Images

27th November 2012, 07:14 AM	#6
satsujinken Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Surabaya - Indonesia Posts: 199	miscellaneous pics again Attached Images

27th November 2012, 07:16 AM	#7
satsujinken Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Surabaya - Indonesia Posts: 199	nice pamor Attached Images

27th November 2012, 11:39 PM	#9
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	All these new keris examples have provoked a question for me: In 100 years how will the keris evolve? What forms will we see in the future?

28th November 2012, 12:59 AM	#10
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	The keris has continuously evolved since it first appeared on the scene over 1000 years ago. It is unlikely that it was called a keris back then, but it did possess sufficient of the characteristics of what was later called the keris for it to be recogniseable as one. From about 1300 through to probably as recently as 1970 or so, the evolution of the keris expressed itself as the periodic appearance of new dhapurs and new pamors, as well as changes to its socio-religious status. In the early 1980's when the Anak-anak ASKI came on the scene and began to produce new keris dhapurs as works of art, this development came under a lot of fire from the Surakarta traditionalists. The attitude was that if a keris did not conform to an already established dhapur, then it was not a keris. A work of art it might be, even a great work of art, but it could not be a keris. The reasoning behind this attitude was that the only person who had the authority to approve any new dhapur was the ruler, and in the minds of the Surakarta elite, the only ruler who could possess this authority was the Susuhunan of Surakarta, who was the ruler of the senior branch of the House of Mataram. This attitude can of course generate argument with supporters of other royal houses, so we'll take it as read that there is room for disagreement with this stance. So those early attempts at keris blade art were to a very great degree regarded as illegitimate. But in recent years a new wind has blown through the keris world in Indonesia. In line with changes in the political atmosphere, Jack is now as good as his master --- well, almost as good, at least in the eyes of the younger generation, so royal endorsement of dhapurs no longer seems to be necessary. The hard-core Kejawen traditionalists will undoubtedly continue to adopt the attitude that a dhapur needs to be legitimated by the Ruler before it can be regarded as a proper keris. I must admit, I'm a bit inclined this way myself. There is a lot of ticky-tacky bling out there with new and recent keris creations, it is quite difficult to find good taste and genuine quality, rather than something that just looks great in a photo. I personally much prefer excellence of execution within already established parameters, and my personal guideline is that I will only ever spend money on keris that comply with this. If we examine Indonesian, and most particularly Javanese social patterns, we find that the society as a whole, and also segments of the society, tend to go through "seasons", where something will become overwhelmingly popular for a while, and then sink into obscurity. I have seen the rise of the keris from virtual obscurity in Jawa during the late 1960's, to become a major art movement at the present time. Based upon what we can observe in the past in this society, I am inclined to believe that right at this moment we are at a tipping point where keris will gradually begin to slide back into obscurity in Indonesia. They will once again become the province of only a few really dedicated and culture conscious people, as they were prior to the explosion of the last few years. From my personal point of view, this is not such a bad thing. When the truth of the keris is finally revealed I believe most culturally aware people will concur with my opinion that there is too much commercialism and too much intensity in the present keris culture. So, future development? Probably even more extreme forms, more and more artistic enhancement, and eventually a changing of the seasons.

28th November 2012, 11:07 AM	#12
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Thank you Satsu for the very interesting article about C14 dating of iron artefacts and I will immediately submit my 100,000$ Singosari blades to the age test Last edited by Jean; 28th November 2012 at 05:38 PM.