Yataghan and markings - ID and comments, please

Zifir · 23rd November 2012, 09:21 PM

Norman,
Thanks a lot for these interesting examples. These are new for me.
Regards,

Norman McCormick · 23rd November 2012, 11:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zifir

Norman,
Thanks a lot for these interesting examples. These are new for me.
Regards,

Hi Zifir,
You're welcome. Here is something else that may be of interest, it is titled, From Freyfechter, Sebastian Heussler's Fencing Treatise, New Kunstlich Fechtbuch of 1615. An interesting article containing this image and others with text can be found here www.hroarr.com/the-dussack/
My Regards,
Norman.

P.S. Note the images of the 'heads' compared to the images on swords.

eftihis · 8th October 2021, 07:41 AM

I was doing research for a yataghan that proved to be identical with the one in this thread, so i am showing it! The handle, crossguard, and type of blade are identical. There are different engravings on the blade, of the same style though.

eftihis · 8th October 2021, 07:43 AM

I wondering what this inscription is about! Is it an abreviation?

gp · 9th October 2021, 09:08 AM

just like Jim wrote on the Pandours Â“the exact nature of the probably widely assorted weapons used by them cannot of course be determined with any certainty. As many of the men in these units were recruited from Balkan regions and ethnic groups in contingent areas, all supplying thier own weapons, it would be impossible to do anything but speculateÂ”

the same applies on the Balkans for the Bash Bazouks as both of them were recruted from locals, who either wanted to escape poverty, have a decent bed, food and clothing or just were ordered as a buffer at the borders to function as a protection force. Hence still the name "Krajina" derived from kraj = end in the former Yugoslavia, meaning military frontier were Vlachs, Serbs, Montenegrins, Croats and Bosnians lived.
And many became Pandours at the Habsburgian side , where on the Ottoman side the same became Bash Bazouks with some Albanians an Greek as well included. Similar like at the Battle of Kosovo, a big day in Serbian history, many Serbs were fighting in service of the Sultan....
That line continues to the "Bosniaken"i.e. the Habsburg Infantery Regiments I -IV which existested from 1882 -1918 (NCOs and other ranks were Muslims, 39.12% were Orthodox and 25.04% were Roman Catholic. The remainder were a mix of Greek Catholics, Jews and Protestants.[1] Regardless of religious faith all other ranks wore the fez. ).

So nothing new on the Balkans, same as the Romans used men from the Illyrian regions to fight the Gaul wars.

It goes without saying that they all brought and used their own local weapons and also used local black smiths to manufacture weapons.
Hence quite some influence from all sides.Like in some earlier post where I showed a bichaq who has Bosnian and Surme characteristics. or one with a painting of a Habsburgian Dalmatian regiment who went into battle with yataghans.

So difficult to say sometimes but I would like to hear more from yataghanman and have him elaborate more on his statement as I do want to learn more.

Elgood, no disrespect intended, is for me not leading on Yataghans as i am reading now Durdica Petrovic's book "Balkan waepons (VII-XIX) , one of 4 she wrote, which Elgood used to write for his piece on yataghans.

By he way Baron Franz von der Trenck was although Prussian an Austrian officer in charge of the pandours, just like many Austrians did on the "Bosniaken" and is a cousin of Friedrich Freiherr von der Trenck,, also world famous because of his adventures.

Coming back to the pandours or grenzer versus bash bazouks: both sides were know for their fierce heroic fighting but also some atrocities...

Jim McDougall · 9th October 2021, 05:28 PM

Excellent synopsis GP, while the Pandours were indeed a specific group of diverse ethnicities formed into auxiliary forces for the armies of Maria Theresa in the wars of Spanish Succession in mid 18th c.

They were comprised in many cases of border guards in Croatian regions as well as security forces. Other Balkan groups as well as Hungarians also were included.
Baron Franz von Trenck, as you note formed these forces, who were assigned to carry out skirmishing as well as acquiring supplies. This unfortunately became ruthless pillaging and atrocious activity which led eventually to the disbandment of these forces and imprisonment of von Trenck.

These forces had worn exotic oriental style clothing, and all manner of styles of hair, drooping mustaches, shaved heads with scalp locks etc. and brandished 'exotic' weaponry including the yataghan, and other Eastern sabers.
Their terrifying look and demeanor remained profoundly in the minds of Europeans for decades, and their 'exploits' and threat became hubris which was placed on blades of weapons for decades, VIVAT PANDUR.

Von Trenck's own yataghan style sword was sold at auction some years back, and had come from the Charles Buttin collection.

A note on Robert Elgood's book on Balkan weapons. I recall when he was writing this, most of his emphasis was on the firearms, thus I suspect the yataghan coverage was less than as thorough as his usual work. The study of the yataghan itself is very complex because of its diversity and diffusion through thev expanse of the Ottoman Empire, so relying on a single resource without heavy cross referencing as you suggest , is essential.

Interested Party · 9th October 2021, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gp

Elgood, no disrespect intended, is for me not leading on Yataghans as i am reading now Durdica Petrovic's book "Balkan waepons (VII-XIX) , one of 4 she wrote, which Elgood used to write for his piece on yataghans.

GP, reading Elgood's bibliography it seems I am not lucky enough for there to be an English translation of these books. Am I correct? Am I looking for "The Armorers' craft in Metohija"? I couldn't find a reference to the book you mentioned in the "Arms of Greece". Even an edition in a romance language preferably Spanish would be a big help.

gp · 9th October 2021, 11:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Interested Party

GP, reading Elgood's bibliography it seems I am not lucky enough for there to be an English translation of these books. Am I correct? Am I looking for "The Armorers' craft in Metohija"? I couldn't find a reference to the book you mentioned in the "Arms of Greece". Even an edition in a romance language preferably Spanish would be a big help.

correct , there are unfortunately in the Balkans hardly to few translations of these books. One can be lucky to find them in latin and not cyrilic writing...which makes it a little eassier. Most data is indeed translated by the likes of Elgood or Austrian and German sources who did have always intersting publications on the Balkans. There are some English ones but hardly on cold weapons. I use the original Serbian, Croatian, Montenegrin Yugoslav books and translate it myself. Fortunately some Bulgarian, Rumanian and Turkish ones are also partially in English. You can find them in some of my posts on Bosnian arms, yataghans and bichaqs.
Also sadly publications in or from Balkan got often ignored due to unknown reasons to me.

Some literature:

Niels A. Andersen, On some Political Gold Yatagans from Algiers and Tunis, Vaabenhistoriske Aarbøger XIII, København 1966, page 159/226.
Esin Atil, The Age of Sultan Suleyman the Magnificent, Washington 1987, page 147, 152/153,
Maurice Bottet, La Manufacture d'Armes de Versailles, Boutet Directeur Artiste, Paris 1903,
Richard F. Burton, The Book of the Sword, London 1884, page 133/134. Anton Dolleczek, Monographie der k. u. k. österr.-ung. Blanken und Handfeuer-Waffen, Wien 1896/Graz 1970, page 32/33.
Jacob, Armes blanches page 114/123.
Dietrich Menz, Handschar/Yatagan, Deutsches Waffenjournal, Schwäbisch Hall 1967, Nr. 4 page 270/272.
Anthony North, Islamic Arms, London 1985, page 24/26
Marija Sercer, Jatagani u Povijesnom Muzeju Hrvatske, Zagreb 1975
Turgay Tezcan, Silahar, Topkapi Sarayi Müzesi, Istanbul 1983, page 32/33, 35.
Yatagane aus dem Historischen Museum von Kroatien in Zagreb, Katalog
Graz 1976
Vejsil Curcic , Starinsko Oruzje, Sarajevo 1926
Đurđica Petrović;
- Balkansko oružje (XII-XIX v.) : izabrane studije ( Balkan weapons XII-XIX)
- Dubrovačko oružje u XIV veku ( weapons of Dubrovnik XIV century)
Mirsad Sijarcic, Hladno oružje iz Bosne i Hercegovine u arheologiji razvijenog i kasnog srednjeg vijeka (Cold-steel weapons from Bosnia and Herzegovina in the archaeology of the high and late mediaeval period) 2014
Milan Praunsperger. Oružje starih hrvata ( weapons of the old Croats), 1943
Balkans Arms , knives and daggers 18th-19th century by Tarik Kožo - , in 3 languages (!); Bosnian, German and English, 2010 Sarajevo
and also the publications in French, German and Austrian papers or books between 1850-1918 I mentioned in my post about Balkan and Bosnian cold weapons, like yataghans, bicaqs, kama's and cakija's like
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ook#post264299

8th October 2021, 07:41 AM	#3
eftihis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chania Crete Greece Posts: 511	I was doing research for a yataghan that proved to be identical with the one in this thread, so i am showing it! The handle, crossguard, and type of blade are identical. There are different engravings on the blade, of the same style though. Attached Images

8th October 2021, 07:43 AM	#4
eftihis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chania Crete Greece Posts: 511	what is the meaning? I wondering what this inscription is about! Is it an abreviation? Attached Images

9th October 2021, 09:08 AM	#5
gp Member Join Date: May 2020 Posts: 823	just like Jim wrote on the Pandours Â“the exact nature of the probably widely assorted weapons used by them cannot of course be determined with any certainty. As many of the men in these units were recruited from Balkan regions and ethnic groups in contingent areas, all supplying thier own weapons, it would be impossible to do anything but speculateÂ” the same applies on the Balkans for the Bash Bazouks as both of them were recruted from locals, who either wanted to escape poverty, have a decent bed, food and clothing or just were ordered as a buffer at the borders to function as a protection force. Hence still the name "Krajina" derived from kraj = end in the former Yugoslavia, meaning military frontier were Vlachs, Serbs, Montenegrins, Croats and Bosnians lived. And many became Pandours at the Habsburgian side , where on the Ottoman side the same became Bash Bazouks with some Albanians an Greek as well included. Similar like at the Battle of Kosovo, a big day in Serbian history, many Serbs were fighting in service of the Sultan.... That line continues to the "Bosniaken"i.e. the Habsburg Infantery Regiments I -IV which existested from 1882 -1918 (NCOs and other ranks were Muslims, 39.12% were Orthodox and 25.04% were Roman Catholic. The remainder were a mix of Greek Catholics, Jews and Protestants.[1] Regardless of religious faith all other ranks wore the fez. ). So nothing new on the Balkans, same as the Romans used men from the Illyrian regions to fight the Gaul wars. It goes without saying that they all brought and used their own local weapons and also used local black smiths to manufacture weapons. Hence quite some influence from all sides.Like in some earlier post where I showed a bichaq who has Bosnian and Surme characteristics. or one with a painting of a Habsburgian Dalmatian regiment who went into battle with yataghans. So difficult to say sometimes but I would like to hear more from yataghanman and have him elaborate more on his statement as I do want to learn more. Elgood, no disrespect intended, is for me not leading on Yataghans as i am reading now Durdica Petrovic's book "Balkan waepons (VII-XIX) , one of 4 she wrote, which Elgood used to write for his piece on yataghans. By he way Baron Franz von der Trenck was although Prussian an Austrian officer in charge of the pandours, just like many Austrians did on the "Bosniaken" and is a cousin of Friedrich Freiherr von der Trenck,, also world famous because of his adventures. Coming back to the pandours or grenzer versus bash bazouks: both sides were know for their fierce heroic fighting but also some atrocities... Last edited by gp; 10th October 2021 at 12:19 AM.

23rd November 2012, 09:21 PM	#1
Zifir Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Istanbul Posts: 228	Norman, Thanks a lot for these interesting examples. These are new for me. Regards,

9th October 2021, 05:28 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	Excellent synopsis GP, while the Pandours were indeed a specific group of diverse ethnicities formed into auxiliary forces for the armies of Maria Theresa in the wars of Spanish Succession in mid 18th c. They were comprised in many cases of border guards in Croatian regions as well as security forces. Other Balkan groups as well as Hungarians also were included. Baron Franz von Trenck, as you note formed these forces, who were assigned to carry out skirmishing as well as acquiring supplies. This unfortunately became ruthless pillaging and atrocious activity which led eventually to the disbandment of these forces and imprisonment of von Trenck. These forces had worn exotic oriental style clothing, and all manner of styles of hair, drooping mustaches, shaved heads with scalp locks etc. and brandished 'exotic' weaponry including the yataghan, and other Eastern sabers. Their terrifying look and demeanor remained profoundly in the minds of Europeans for decades, and their 'exploits' and threat became hubris which was placed on blades of weapons for decades, VIVAT PANDUR. Von Trenck's own yataghan style sword was sold at auction some years back, and had come from the Charles Buttin collection. A note on Robert Elgood's book on Balkan weapons. I recall when he was writing this, most of his emphasis was on the firearms, thus I suspect the yataghan coverage was less than as thorough as his usual work. The study of the yataghan itself is very complex because of its diversity and diffusion through thev expanse of the Ottoman Empire, so relying on a single resource without heavy cross referencing as you suggest , is essential.