To take antique arm out of USA

erlikhan · 21st September 2005, 06:38 AM

I see. thank you. it is ivory handled but it would not be any problem in Turkey. and I have friends in airport customs here too, but not in postal customs.
And a last question. it has an invoice. is it possible and if it is so,easy to insure the bag in flight checkin so that the loss will be covered if it is stolen on the way?

Rick · 21st September 2005, 02:34 PM

Once again I'd advise checking with the airline about this . The sword may have to be packed separately for individual insurance . Generally airlines allow you a set value for a lost piece of luggage .
An individual package may be a different story .

Mick · 21st September 2005, 03:42 PM

Turkey is listed as a party to CITES as of 1996.

erlikhan · 21st September 2005, 06:39 PM

CITES can cause problem to bring it into Turkey, but not to take out of USA, right?

Rick · 21st September 2005, 07:13 PM

A specimen of a CITES-listed species may be imported into or exported (or re-exported) from a State party to the Convention only if the appropriate document has been obtained and presented for clearance at the port of entry or exit. There is some variation of the requirements from one country to another and it is always necessary to check on the national laws that may be stricter, but the basic conditions that apply for Appendices I and II are described below.

Appendix-I specimens

An import permit issued by the Management Authority of the State of import is required. This may be issued only if the specimen is not to be used for primarily commercial purposes and if the import will be for purposes that are not detrimental to the survival of the species. In the case of a live animal or plant, the Scientific Authority must be satisfied that the proposed recipient is suitably equipped to house and care for it.

An export permit or re-export certificate issued by the Management Authority of the State of export or re-export is also required.
An export permit may be issued only if the specimen was legally obtained; the trade will not be detrimental to the survival of the species; and an import permit has already been issued.

A re-export certificate may be issued only if the specimen was imported in accordance with the provisions of the Convention and, in the case of a live animal or plant, if an import permit has been issued.

In the case of a live animal or plant, it must be prepared and shipped to minimize any risk of injury, damage to health or cruel treatment.

Appendix-II specimens

An export permit or re-export certificate issued by the Management Authority of the State of export or re-export is required.

An export permit may be issued only if the specimen was legally obtained and if the export will not be detrimental to the survival of the species.

A re-export certificate may be issued only if the specimen was imported in accordance with the Convention.

In the case of a live animal or plant, it must be prepared and shipped to minimize any risk of injury, damage to health or cruel treatment.

No import permit is needed unless required by national law.
In the case of specimens introduced from the sea, a certificate has to be issued by the Management Authority of the State into which the specimens are being brought, for species listed in Appendix I or II. For further information, see the text of the Convention, Article III, paragraph 5 and Article IV, paragraph 6.

Appendix-III specimens

In the case of trade from a State that included the species in Appendix III, an export permit issued by the Management Authority of that State is required. This may be issued only if the specimen was legally obtained and, in the case of a live animal or plant, if it will be prepared and shipped to minimize any risk of injury, damage to health or cruel treatment.

In the case of export from any other State, a certificate of origin issued by its Management Authority is required.

In the case of re-export, a re-export certificate issued by the State of re-export is required
In its Article VII, the Convention allows or requires Parties to make certain exceptions to the general principles described above, notably in the following cases:

for specimens in transit or being transhipped [see also Resolution Conf. 9.7 (Rev. CoP13)];
for specimens that were acquired before CITES provisions applied to them (known as pre-Convention specimens, see also Resolution Conf. 13.6);
for specimens that are personal or household effects ([see also Resolution Conf. 13.7);
for animals that were ‘bred in captivity’ [see Resolution Conf. 10.16 (Rev.)];
for plants that were ‘artificially propagated’ [see Resolution Conf. 11.11 (Rev. CoP13)];
for specimens that are destined for scientific research;
for animals or plants forming part of a travelling collection or exhibition, such as a circus.
There are special rules in these cases and a permit or certificate will generally still be required. Anyone planning to import or export/re-export specimens of a CITES species should contact the national CITES Management Authorities of the countries of import and export/re-export for information on the rules that apply.

When a specimen of a CITES-listed species is transferred between a country that is a Party to CITES and a country that is not, the country that is a Party may accept documentation equivalent to the permits and certificates described above.

Here is the official site :
http://www.cites.org/index.html

Here's another site that deals with your issues (pdf document requires Adobe Acrobat Reader software) :
http://www.fws.gov/international/pdf/as.pdf

Good luck .

Mick · 21st September 2005, 07:16 PM

I think that CITES activity is probably initiated by the customs personnel at the country in which you are attempting to bring the item. We don't usually meet with these people when you are leaving the US unless you specifically ask to see them (and in some cases go out looking for them). The entire CITES documents can be read by toggling google and bring them up. It is a pretty complicated document and in effect (the way that I read it) limites you to a one time sale of an item even if the item is allowed within the provisions.

Sorry it looks like Rick and I were writing at the same time.

Rick · 21st September 2005, 07:27 PM

I think the upshot is that your Brother would be best advised to get the Yataghan appraised by a licensed appraiser and have him issue a certificate , or possibly a nearby museum could also issue something official .

Now if you have an 'in' with airport customs agents in your country that is something (circumvention of international laws) we do not discuss here .

Mark · 28th September 2005, 04:09 PM

I missed the latest developments in this thread. Let me explain from personal experience how CITES works (I have an application for an export permit pending at the moment).

Each signatory country has a "managing authority" (in the US it is the Fish and Wildlife Service), that issues export permits for anything covered by CITES, which is pretty much everything but pig bone.

In order to possess, transport, import, export, re-import or re-export, you must have the appropriate permit. The whole thing is mostly geared toward live animals, and animal parts like pelts, tusks, rhino horns, etc., but it does cover things made with them, such as grips and sheaths.

An application for a permit requires a supporting certification that the object(s) in question fall within an exemption to the CITES bans. If you want to take something out and bring it back in, you need an "export/re-import" permit. The relevant exception for the sword collector (in most cases), is that the piece is an antique (more than 100 years old), OR that it has not been in commerce since December 28, 1973. By "in commerce" it is meant that it has not been sold, or for sale, since that date (if the item has changed hands via sale even once, it loses the exemption). The certification, as Rick said, can be made by anyone with expertise, and is usually in the form of a signed declaration that includes the certifier's credentials.

Once the permit is obtained, you are advised to contact the Customs authorities and have them review and sign off on the permit, so that there is no delay in the export. They have the power to inspect the item if they want, and this can save time in the end if they choose to. In the US, the item must be exported from one of six specific ports, but there isn't a problem getting a waiver of that from the Customs office of the port you would otherwise have to use (BTW, the Customs office you need to deal with throughout this process is the one in charge of this port).

So now you have all the right papers to export, and generally this is enough to get something into another country, since the basic requirements are uniform. The US actually has stricter standards because we have the Endangered Species Act and a specific law about trade in African ivory, which have tighter standards than CITES.

Once in the destination country, you need to obtain another permit if you want to get the thing back out. Basically the same process in reverse, which I personally haven't gone through yet, but I am told that the original export permit is usually enough to get the new export permit.

The CITES pages of the USFWS web site (http://www.fws.gov/permits/ImportExp...rtExport.shtml) have a bunch of information, and all the forms, for the permitting process in the US. It is a pain because it isn't always clear exactly what you need to do, but once you have figured it out, all you really need to do is wait for the wheels of government to turn. Approval can take up to 3 months in the US, and there is a considerable backlog right now, apparently.

21st September 2005, 07:13 PM	#5
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,347	Here's The Legalese A specimen of a CITES-listed species may be imported into or exported (or re-exported) from a State party to the Convention only if the appropriate document has been obtained and presented for clearance at the port of entry or exit. There is some variation of the requirements from one country to another and it is always necessary to check on the national laws that may be stricter, but the basic conditions that apply for Appendices I and II are described below. Appendix-I specimens An import permit issued by the Management Authority of the State of import is required. This may be issued only if the specimen is not to be used for primarily commercial purposes and if the import will be for purposes that are not detrimental to the survival of the species. In the case of a live animal or plant, the Scientific Authority must be satisfied that the proposed recipient is suitably equipped to house and care for it. An export permit or re-export certificate issued by the Management Authority of the State of export or re-export is also required. An export permit may be issued only if the specimen was legally obtained; the trade will not be detrimental to the survival of the species; and an import permit has already been issued. A re-export certificate may be issued only if the specimen was imported in accordance with the provisions of the Convention and, in the case of a live animal or plant, if an import permit has been issued. In the case of a live animal or plant, it must be prepared and shipped to minimize any risk of injury, damage to health or cruel treatment. Appendix-II specimens An export permit or re-export certificate issued by the Management Authority of the State of export or re-export is required. An export permit may be issued only if the specimen was legally obtained and if the export will not be detrimental to the survival of the species. A re-export certificate may be issued only if the specimen was imported in accordance with the Convention. In the case of a live animal or plant, it must be prepared and shipped to minimize any risk of injury, damage to health or cruel treatment. No import permit is needed unless required by national law. In the case of specimens introduced from the sea, a certificate has to be issued by the Management Authority of the State into which the specimens are being brought, for species listed in Appendix I or II. For further information, see the text of the Convention, Article III, paragraph 5 and Article IV, paragraph 6. Appendix-III specimens In the case of trade from a State that included the species in Appendix III, an export permit issued by the Management Authority of that State is required. This may be issued only if the specimen was legally obtained and, in the case of a live animal or plant, if it will be prepared and shipped to minimize any risk of injury, damage to health or cruel treatment. In the case of export from any other State, a certificate of origin issued by its Management Authority is required. In the case of re-export, a re-export certificate issued by the State of re-export is required In its Article VII, the Convention allows or requires Parties to make certain exceptions to the general principles described above, notably in the following cases: for specimens in transit or being transhipped [see also Resolution Conf. 9.7 (Rev. CoP13)]; for specimens that were acquired before CITES provisions applied to them (known as pre-Convention specimens, see also Resolution Conf. 13.6); for specimens that are personal or household effects ([see also Resolution Conf. 13.7); for animals that were ‘bred in captivity’ [see Resolution Conf. 10.16 (Rev.)]; for plants that were ‘artificially propagated’ [see Resolution Conf. 11.11 (Rev. CoP13)]; for specimens that are destined for scientific research; for animals or plants forming part of a travelling collection or exhibition, such as a circus. There are special rules in these cases and a permit or certificate will generally still be required. Anyone planning to import or export/re-export specimens of a CITES species should contact the national CITES Management Authorities of the countries of import and export/re-export for information on the rules that apply. When a specimen of a CITES-listed species is transferred between a country that is a Party to CITES and a country that is not, the country that is a Party may accept documentation equivalent to the permits and certificates described above. Here is the official site : http://www.cites.org/index.html Here's another site that deals with your issues (pdf document requires Adobe Acrobat Reader software) : http://www.fws.gov/international/pdf/as.pdf Good luck .

28th September 2005, 04:09 PM	#8
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	Sorry I sort of fell off the discussion I missed the latest developments in this thread. Let me explain from personal experience how CITES works (I have an application for an export permit pending at the moment). Each signatory country has a "managing authority" (in the US it is the Fish and Wildlife Service), that issues export permits for anything covered by CITES, which is pretty much everything but pig bone. In order to possess, transport, import, export, re-import or re-export, you must have the appropriate permit. The whole thing is mostly geared toward live animals, and animal parts like pelts, tusks, rhino horns, etc., but it does cover things made with them, such as grips and sheaths. An application for a permit requires a supporting certification that the object(s) in question fall within an exemption to the CITES bans. If you want to take something out and bring it back in, you need an "export/re-import" permit. The relevant exception for the sword collector (in most cases), is that the piece is an antique (more than 100 years old), OR that it has not been in commerce since December 28, 1973. By "in commerce" it is meant that it has not been sold, or for sale, since that date (if the item has changed hands via sale even once, it loses the exemption). The certification, as Rick said, can be made by anyone with expertise, and is usually in the form of a signed declaration that includes the certifier's credentials. Once the permit is obtained, you are advised to contact the Customs authorities and have them review and sign off on the permit, so that there is no delay in the export. They have the power to inspect the item if they want, and this can save time in the end if they choose to. In the US, the item must be exported from one of six specific ports, but there isn't a problem getting a waiver of that from the Customs office of the port you would otherwise have to use (BTW, the Customs office you need to deal with throughout this process is the one in charge of this port). So now you have all the right papers to export, and generally this is enough to get something into another country, since the basic requirements are uniform. The US actually has stricter standards because we have the Endangered Species Act and a specific law about trade in African ivory, which have tighter standards than CITES. Once in the destination country, you need to obtain another permit if you want to get the thing back out. Basically the same process in reverse, which I personally haven't gone through yet, but I am told that the original export permit is usually enough to get the new export permit. The CITES pages of the USFWS web site (http://www.fws.gov/permits/ImportExp...rtExport.shtml) have a bunch of information, and all the forms, for the permitting process in the US. It is a pain because it isn't always clear exactly what you need to do, but once you have figured it out, all you really need to do is wait for the wheels of government to turn. Approval can take up to 3 months in the US, and there is a considerable backlog right now, apparently.

21st September 2005, 06:38 AM	#1
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	I see. thank you. it is ivory handled but it would not be any problem in Turkey. and I have friends in airport customs here too, but not in postal customs. And a last question. it has an invoice. is it possible and if it is so,easy to insure the bag in flight checkin so that the loss will be covered if it is stolen on the way?

21st September 2005, 02:34 PM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,347	Once again I'd advise checking with the airline about this . The sword may have to be packed separately for individual insurance . Generally airlines allow you a set value for a lost piece of luggage . An individual package may be a different story .

21st September 2005, 03:42 PM	#3
Mick Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Orlando Posts: 104	Turkey is listed as a party to CITES as of 1996.

21st September 2005, 06:39 PM	#4
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	CITES can cause problem to bring it into Turkey, but not to take out of USA, right?

21st September 2005, 07:16 PM	#6
Mick Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Orlando Posts: 104	I think that CITES activity is probably initiated by the customs personnel at the country in which you are attempting to bring the item. We don't usually meet with these people when you are leaving the US unless you specifically ask to see them (and in some cases go out looking for them). The entire CITES documents can be read by toggling google and bring them up. It is a pretty complicated document and in effect (the way that I read it) limites you to a one time sale of an item even if the item is allowed within the provisions. Sorry it looks like Rick and I were writing at the same time.

21st September 2005, 07:27 PM	#7
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,347	I think the upshot is that your Brother would be best advised to get the Yataghan appraised by a licensed appraiser and have him issue a certificate , or possibly a nearby museum could also issue something official . Now if you have an 'in' with airport customs agents in your country that is something (circumvention of international laws) we do not discuss here .