To take antique arm out of USA

Mark · 21st September 2005, 12:56 AM

I expect that you will have more trouble getting it into Turkey than getting it out of the US. If it has an ivory handle, then Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species (CITES) will apply, as Rick said. However, at least in the US, you are permitted to carry items as part of your personal belongings without having to get a permit. In that sense it may be better for him to carry it.

That's about all that I can contribute. What other people have said, I agree with, too.

VANDOO · 21st September 2005, 02:38 AM

I CAN'T ADD MUCH TO WHAT HAS BEEN SAID EXCEPT TO MAKE SURE YOUR ITEM IS VERY WELL PACKED IF EITHER SHIPPING OR TAKING IN A CHECKED BAG.
I ALWAYS CARRY MY STUFF IN A HARD SIDED SUITCASE WITH GOOD PACKING INSIDE AND HAVE HAD NO PROBLEMS IN THE USA BUT THINGS HAVE CHANGED A LOT SINCE 9-11.
THE WORST PROBLEM I HAVE HAD WAS ARRIVING IN TAIWAN WITH A SUITCASE FULL OF SWORDS AS THEY WILL NOT BE ALLOWED IN THE COUNTRY SO HAVE TO BE LEFT AT THE AIRPORT. WHEN YOU LEAVE YOU CAN'T GET THEM TO WHERE YOU CAN PACK THEM IN YOUR CHECK IN LUGGAGE AND THEY WON'T LET YOU CARRY THEM ON EITHER. I OVERCAME THE PROBLEM BY ASKING THE FLIGHT CREW TO CARRY THEM INTO THE COCKPIT WITH THEM AND GIVE THEM TO ME WHEN WE ARRIVED SO I LUCKED OUT THAT TIME. IT IS DIFFICULT TO KNOW WHAT THE POLICYS ARE IN OTHER COUNTRYS AND IT OFTEN VARIES FROM ONE AIRPORT TO ANOTHER AND EVEN FROM ONE CUSTOMS AGENT TO ANOTHER. SO IT COMES DOWN TO THE OLD DIRTY HARRY SAYING "DO YOU FEEL LUCKY?"

GOOD LUCK WHATEVER YOU DECIDE.

erlikhan · 21st September 2005, 06:38 AM

I see. thank you. it is ivory handled but it would not be any problem in Turkey. and I have friends in airport customs here too, but not in postal customs.
And a last question. it has an invoice. is it possible and if it is so,easy to insure the bag in flight checkin so that the loss will be covered if it is stolen on the way?

Rick · 21st September 2005, 02:34 PM

Once again I'd advise checking with the airline about this . The sword may have to be packed separately for individual insurance . Generally airlines allow you a set value for a lost piece of luggage .
An individual package may be a different story .

Mick · 21st September 2005, 03:42 PM

Turkey is listed as a party to CITES as of 1996.

erlikhan · 21st September 2005, 06:39 PM

CITES can cause problem to bring it into Turkey, but not to take out of USA, right?

Rick · 21st September 2005, 07:13 PM

A specimen of a CITES-listed species may be imported into or exported (or re-exported) from a State party to the Convention only if the appropriate document has been obtained and presented for clearance at the port of entry or exit. There is some variation of the requirements from one country to another and it is always necessary to check on the national laws that may be stricter, but the basic conditions that apply for Appendices I and II are described below.

Appendix-I specimens

An import permit issued by the Management Authority of the State of import is required. This may be issued only if the specimen is not to be used for primarily commercial purposes and if the import will be for purposes that are not detrimental to the survival of the species. In the case of a live animal or plant, the Scientific Authority must be satisfied that the proposed recipient is suitably equipped to house and care for it.

An export permit or re-export certificate issued by the Management Authority of the State of export or re-export is also required.
An export permit may be issued only if the specimen was legally obtained; the trade will not be detrimental to the survival of the species; and an import permit has already been issued.

A re-export certificate may be issued only if the specimen was imported in accordance with the provisions of the Convention and, in the case of a live animal or plant, if an import permit has been issued.

In the case of a live animal or plant, it must be prepared and shipped to minimize any risk of injury, damage to health or cruel treatment.

Appendix-II specimens

An export permit or re-export certificate issued by the Management Authority of the State of export or re-export is required.

An export permit may be issued only if the specimen was legally obtained and if the export will not be detrimental to the survival of the species.

A re-export certificate may be issued only if the specimen was imported in accordance with the Convention.

In the case of a live animal or plant, it must be prepared and shipped to minimize any risk of injury, damage to health or cruel treatment.

No import permit is needed unless required by national law.
In the case of specimens introduced from the sea, a certificate has to be issued by the Management Authority of the State into which the specimens are being brought, for species listed in Appendix I or II. For further information, see the text of the Convention, Article III, paragraph 5 and Article IV, paragraph 6.

Appendix-III specimens

In the case of trade from a State that included the species in Appendix III, an export permit issued by the Management Authority of that State is required. This may be issued only if the specimen was legally obtained and, in the case of a live animal or plant, if it will be prepared and shipped to minimize any risk of injury, damage to health or cruel treatment.

In the case of export from any other State, a certificate of origin issued by its Management Authority is required.

In the case of re-export, a re-export certificate issued by the State of re-export is required
In its Article VII, the Convention allows or requires Parties to make certain exceptions to the general principles described above, notably in the following cases:

for specimens in transit or being transhipped [see also Resolution Conf. 9.7 (Rev. CoP13)];
for specimens that were acquired before CITES provisions applied to them (known as pre-Convention specimens, see also Resolution Conf. 13.6);
for specimens that are personal or household effects ([see also Resolution Conf. 13.7);
for animals that were ‘bred in captivity’ [see Resolution Conf. 10.16 (Rev.)];
for plants that were ‘artificially propagated’ [see Resolution Conf. 11.11 (Rev. CoP13)];
for specimens that are destined for scientific research;
for animals or plants forming part of a travelling collection or exhibition, such as a circus.
There are special rules in these cases and a permit or certificate will generally still be required. Anyone planning to import or export/re-export specimens of a CITES species should contact the national CITES Management Authorities of the countries of import and export/re-export for information on the rules that apply.

When a specimen of a CITES-listed species is transferred between a country that is a Party to CITES and a country that is not, the country that is a Party may accept documentation equivalent to the permits and certificates described above.

Here is the official site :
http://www.cites.org/index.html

Here's another site that deals with your issues (pdf document requires Adobe Acrobat Reader software) :
http://www.fws.gov/international/pdf/as.pdf

Good luck .

Mick · 21st September 2005, 07:16 PM

I think that CITES activity is probably initiated by the customs personnel at the country in which you are attempting to bring the item. We don't usually meet with these people when you are leaving the US unless you specifically ask to see them (and in some cases go out looking for them). The entire CITES documents can be read by toggling google and bring them up. It is a pretty complicated document and in effect (the way that I read it) limites you to a one time sale of an item even if the item is allowed within the provisions.

Sorry it looks like Rick and I were writing at the same time.

21st September 2005, 07:13 PM	#7
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,347	Here's The Legalese A specimen of a CITES-listed species may be imported into or exported (or re-exported) from a State party to the Convention only if the appropriate document has been obtained and presented for clearance at the port of entry or exit. There is some variation of the requirements from one country to another and it is always necessary to check on the national laws that may be stricter, but the basic conditions that apply for Appendices I and II are described below. Appendix-I specimens An import permit issued by the Management Authority of the State of import is required. This may be issued only if the specimen is not to be used for primarily commercial purposes and if the import will be for purposes that are not detrimental to the survival of the species. In the case of a live animal or plant, the Scientific Authority must be satisfied that the proposed recipient is suitably equipped to house and care for it. An export permit or re-export certificate issued by the Management Authority of the State of export or re-export is also required. An export permit may be issued only if the specimen was legally obtained; the trade will not be detrimental to the survival of the species; and an import permit has already been issued. A re-export certificate may be issued only if the specimen was imported in accordance with the provisions of the Convention and, in the case of a live animal or plant, if an import permit has been issued. In the case of a live animal or plant, it must be prepared and shipped to minimize any risk of injury, damage to health or cruel treatment. Appendix-II specimens An export permit or re-export certificate issued by the Management Authority of the State of export or re-export is required. An export permit may be issued only if the specimen was legally obtained and if the export will not be detrimental to the survival of the species. A re-export certificate may be issued only if the specimen was imported in accordance with the Convention. In the case of a live animal or plant, it must be prepared and shipped to minimize any risk of injury, damage to health or cruel treatment. No import permit is needed unless required by national law. In the case of specimens introduced from the sea, a certificate has to be issued by the Management Authority of the State into which the specimens are being brought, for species listed in Appendix I or II. For further information, see the text of the Convention, Article III, paragraph 5 and Article IV, paragraph 6. Appendix-III specimens In the case of trade from a State that included the species in Appendix III, an export permit issued by the Management Authority of that State is required. This may be issued only if the specimen was legally obtained and, in the case of a live animal or plant, if it will be prepared and shipped to minimize any risk of injury, damage to health or cruel treatment. In the case of export from any other State, a certificate of origin issued by its Management Authority is required. In the case of re-export, a re-export certificate issued by the State of re-export is required In its Article VII, the Convention allows or requires Parties to make certain exceptions to the general principles described above, notably in the following cases: for specimens in transit or being transhipped [see also Resolution Conf. 9.7 (Rev. CoP13)]; for specimens that were acquired before CITES provisions applied to them (known as pre-Convention specimens, see also Resolution Conf. 13.6); for specimens that are personal or household effects ([see also Resolution Conf. 13.7); for animals that were ‘bred in captivity’ [see Resolution Conf. 10.16 (Rev.)]; for plants that were ‘artificially propagated’ [see Resolution Conf. 11.11 (Rev. CoP13)]; for specimens that are destined for scientific research; for animals or plants forming part of a travelling collection or exhibition, such as a circus. There are special rules in these cases and a permit or certificate will generally still be required. Anyone planning to import or export/re-export specimens of a CITES species should contact the national CITES Management Authorities of the countries of import and export/re-export for information on the rules that apply. When a specimen of a CITES-listed species is transferred between a country that is a Party to CITES and a country that is not, the country that is a Party may accept documentation equivalent to the permits and certificates described above. Here is the official site : http://www.cites.org/index.html Here's another site that deals with your issues (pdf document requires Adobe Acrobat Reader software) : http://www.fws.gov/international/pdf/as.pdf Good luck .

21st September 2005, 12:56 AM	#1
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	I expect that you will have more trouble getting it into Turkey than getting it out of the US. If it has an ivory handle, then Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species (CITES) will apply, as Rick said. However, at least in the US, you are permitted to carry items as part of your personal belongings without having to get a permit. In that sense it may be better for him to carry it. That's about all that I can contribute. What other people have said, I agree with, too.

21st September 2005, 02:38 AM	#2
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	I CAN'T ADD MUCH TO WHAT HAS BEEN SAID EXCEPT TO MAKE SURE YOUR ITEM IS VERY WELL PACKED IF EITHER SHIPPING OR TAKING IN A CHECKED BAG. I ALWAYS CARRY MY STUFF IN A HARD SIDED SUITCASE WITH GOOD PACKING INSIDE AND HAVE HAD NO PROBLEMS IN THE USA BUT THINGS HAVE CHANGED A LOT SINCE 9-11. THE WORST PROBLEM I HAVE HAD WAS ARRIVING IN TAIWAN WITH A SUITCASE FULL OF SWORDS AS THEY WILL NOT BE ALLOWED IN THE COUNTRY SO HAVE TO BE LEFT AT THE AIRPORT. WHEN YOU LEAVE YOU CAN'T GET THEM TO WHERE YOU CAN PACK THEM IN YOUR CHECK IN LUGGAGE AND THEY WON'T LET YOU CARRY THEM ON EITHER. I OVERCAME THE PROBLEM BY ASKING THE FLIGHT CREW TO CARRY THEM INTO THE COCKPIT WITH THEM AND GIVE THEM TO ME WHEN WE ARRIVED SO I LUCKED OUT THAT TIME. IT IS DIFFICULT TO KNOW WHAT THE POLICYS ARE IN OTHER COUNTRYS AND IT OFTEN VARIES FROM ONE AIRPORT TO ANOTHER AND EVEN FROM ONE CUSTOMS AGENT TO ANOTHER. SO IT COMES DOWN TO THE OLD DIRTY HARRY SAYING "DO YOU FEEL LUCKY?" GOOD LUCK WHATEVER YOU DECIDE.

21st September 2005, 06:38 AM	#3
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	I see. thank you. it is ivory handled but it would not be any problem in Turkey. and I have friends in airport customs here too, but not in postal customs. And a last question. it has an invoice. is it possible and if it is so,easy to insure the bag in flight checkin so that the loss will be covered if it is stolen on the way?

21st September 2005, 02:34 PM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,347	Once again I'd advise checking with the airline about this . The sword may have to be packed separately for individual insurance . Generally airlines allow you a set value for a lost piece of luggage . An individual package may be a different story .

21st September 2005, 03:42 PM	#5
Mick Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Orlando Posts: 104	Turkey is listed as a party to CITES as of 1996.

21st September 2005, 06:39 PM	#6
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	CITES can cause problem to bring it into Turkey, but not to take out of USA, right?

21st September 2005, 07:16 PM	#8
Mick Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Orlando Posts: 104	I think that CITES activity is probably initiated by the customs personnel at the country in which you are attempting to bring the item. We don't usually meet with these people when you are leaving the US unless you specifically ask to see them (and in some cases go out looking for them). The entire CITES documents can be read by toggling google and bring them up. It is a pretty complicated document and in effect (the way that I read it) limites you to a one time sale of an item even if the item is allowed within the provisions. Sorry it looks like Rick and I were writing at the same time.