American Eagle Head Sabre

Norman McCormick · 6th November 2012, 10:51 PM

Hi,
I have acquired this sabre and would like to know more about it. The net is not awash with info on these so any help would be appreciated. There is no name on blade or hilt. Bone grip which has been "restored" with car body filler which will require a bit of cosmetic attention. Nicks on the blade where one would expect them. Blade just shy of 30 inches long and 1 1/4 inches at widest. A fair amount of gilding left on the guard and pommel. I'm guessing European manufacture possibly second quarter of the 19thC and probably Solingen. Were bare blades imported into the U.S. and hilted locally? Many thanks for all and any help.
Regards,
Norman.

Hotspur · 7th November 2012, 05:48 PM

Hi Norman

These can be tricky to distinguish from where distribution/export to America happened. At first glance, I would say undoubtedly one of the Solingen consortium but then in seeing the bit of the blade decoration, the B&G looks like that was done in England. With S&K and other agents in England, it is not hard to figure at least parts of the sword were Prussian made. The spiral bone also more an English cutler trait. look close at the spine of the blade at the base and see if there is a little squiggle f a couple of lines.

This is of the floating big head and although similar to the "Ketland" bird. I would think generally speaking it belongs to the 1830s or perhaps a little earlier.

I am still (in a rather erstwhile fashion) looking at John Salter & Co of England, who really as a name belongs to an earlier period but the company remained as an exporter of swords to America well into the 1830s.

The blade decoration of blue&gilt another consideration for a possible time but blades were made and decorated, then held in stock with some of this fasion still turing up in the 1840s and even later.

The Prussian big head crested eagles do start to appear by 1812 but the b&g traits on the blades themselves can help to determine an early style vs post 1812 blades.

E.Alexander Mowbray, author of the early/federal period of eagle head pommels book really does not go into this family, as even his and other's thoughts place them after his 1830 benchmark for the book. He does allude to heads like the "Ketland" but not as directly associated.

Mowbray the younger and Flayderman then assemble the Medicus collection of swords and both leave a lot of leeway for speculation/investigation that still goes on. Both Solingen and Birmingham had so many shops going that it is only when a sword is specifically marked to a maker that some do get pigeon holed as Mowbray the elder did. Forever since, his chapters become a basic typology often based on a single marked sword.

My big head backstrap eagle has a definitely Prussian blade and decoration, as well as possibly a good bit earlier b ut the slim blade will always make me wonder. This one possibly from the Knecht family and maybe the 1820s.

Cheers

GC

Jim McDougall · 8th November 2012, 06:01 AM

Thank you Glen for the great information on these! As Norman has noted, it is typically pretty difficult to find useful and pertinant material on these distinctive swords from a cold search, and I had hoped you would respond as these American sword topics are profoundly your field.

Hotspur · 8th November 2012, 05:45 PM

You are welcome Jim. Eagles are pretty much a passion for me and while the later swords less recognized at times, a period I try to make sense of. Both the floating big crested and backstrap big head show up in British guise but I am certain many of the castings start in Solingen.

The example I showed with the backstrap has the mouth opened up but the profile of the big heads undeniably similar between backstrap and floaters.

Here is a floating pommel like Norman's that is similar to the A.W.Spies of New York swords. Spies was an apprentice as a teen in the Wolfe family shop of New York. He then went abroad to Birmingham and learned the business of export as well as cutlery but he was mostly interested in the import to his business which would blossom on his own.

There is some information I am compiling about Spies and had at one point started a thread over at SFI. I have some false conclusions of my own even in that thread but the framework is there.
http://www.swordforum.com/forums/sho...les-and-others

So anyway, a big head floater ala Spies and Salter, undoubtedly from England but we know Solingen is makeing birds like this. I have several Spies marked backstrap examples and the big head floating pommels seem to be a lot less common to find. I can't say that makes them earlier or later but they were (perhaps) to mimic the screaming eagles of Ames which had floating pommels and the spiral or slash marked grips. The Ames artillery sabres and infantry spadroons are of this period.

I will add some more examples of the floaters but I knew where to find this one in my Spies folder (I have some more scattered about in unsorted folders). I have a run to do today for my eyes to look for any floaters in the vitreous. This example may even be marked by a separate retailer but I'll have to look closer at that blade. The rest identical to several marked by Spies.

Cheers

GC

Hotspur · 8th November 2012, 05:53 PM

Also just to mention that they really do look like the older Ketland form and in time might be considered as a followup to the form as a type III but there is already enough confusion just between pre 1812 Ketland types and post war in the smaller head classification. Then you get into how much chasing of a casting a given shop might be doing.

Cheers

GC

Norman McCormick · 8th November 2012, 08:58 PM

Hi Glen,
First of all many thanks for your time and effort in attempting to educate a poor Brit on the knotty subject of American Eagles. I have gone over the sword from top to bottom with the proverbial 'fine tooth comb' but cannot find any mark or sign that would provide a clue as to origins. I like the idea that it might be of English manufacture. You mention the spiral bone grip and I must say I've spent a few hours on the net looking at 'Eagle Heads' and have not found one with the same pattern spiralling. It would be nice to pin down a date as it would enable me to speculate in which conflicts it may have participated in but I can see from your posts that this is much easier said than done. I look forward to your other examples of 'floating heads'. Thanks again.
My Regards,
Norman.

P.S. The second example you show has a very similar blade profile and angle of hilt to blade as mine, I don't know whether this is of consequence or not.

Hotspur · 9th November 2012, 05:08 AM

Hi Norman

Something else you may have to consider if your sword was sold on your side of the pond would be; "What is an American sword of that period doing abroad?" One chapter of Mowbray's eagle book begins with an example of a sword specifically made for a Scotsman. Perhaps you can fill in some blanks yourself on how you came to own the sword and where it had come from.

In America, other warring aside from the war of 1812 and up to the American Civil war would be notably the Seminole wars and the Mexican War. Throughout the interbellum periods were standing militia, as was also true in the UK.

Swords were made up of many standard parts, some fancier than others. Often times there would have been a basic catalog of options, as well as "floor models" to choose from. I have already alluded to that the large head floating pommels are less common post 1812 but showed you an example while mentioning I have more in my own bank of images. You now bring up the spiral grip as uncommon and I agree but could list a few in my own files. MOst of this general time period and in a romp through one of my misc folders have a good match to your own sword. What does that mean in terms of scarcity? Not much. When you find a couple, chances are that if persistent they seem to come out of the woodwork.

I mention in another post that eagles are a passion. That I have some 6,300 eagle sword image files in 41 folders must mean something. Divide roughly by whatever and that would still be many more than six hundred swords I am in the process of categorizing. Consider my prime focus of the eagle pommels to be those up to the war of 1812 and of three basic forms (Bolton, Osborn, Ketland), I will never have half the answers to a good many questions. Narrowing to a couple of decades should be an achievement and as you had already considered the 1830s, I think you may not have just been guessing.

The langets might also point to Solingen as opposed to England but again, the blade decoration too Birmingham blue&gilt to disregard. The example I showed above has noo langets and a good many British made swords for the American market had no langets. That trait also prevelant in American manufacture. On that note, I seriously doubt it is American cutlered and eveb the Spies marked blades decorated and marked at that time in England, as that is how they were ordered.

Along with your spiral big head, I'll also scare up an British made Ames imitator with a spiral grip. So close an imitator of the Ames swords that I was fooled in the beginning myself. That conflict worth a whole thread by itself someday but brought up here in the past. Why do I know that one British and not American Ames? More study and observation to be related someday.
This one most assuredly the mid to late 1830s.

Oh, ok, I lied. Here is one I am pretty sure was an Ames eagle casting but on a Mexican sword (Ames did collaborate with Mexico before the war.

Cheers

GC

M ELEY · 9th November 2012, 06:53 AM

Awesome pics and an excellent thread! Full of great information and pics on these type swords. I like the one with the Span colonial 6-sided broadsword blade. It's truly amazing just how many variations in the fittings and blades there are. Hope this thread continues to grow-

Hotspur · 9th November 2012, 10:16 AM

Well, I think I would digress a far distance from the original ID part of this but let's just say it the evolution for the American market really started after the revolution and the Great Seal was being broadly published. Since that form was not finalized until late 1782, it is then really not until the 1790s that we start to see both larger birds and eagle blade decoration starting to appear.

Ironically, the bald eagle is not even well represented in the first Great Seal portraits with more and more created eagles appearing on the horizon.

Ketland was an arms broker as much as a manufacturer and the swords were not even made in his shops. Guns were his stock in trade on that end of the equation. Birmingham had many shops churning out parts for the swords before the war of 1812 and even during that conflict, swords were still getting through to America from England. Manifested as barrels and trunks of canes and umbrellas, ports on the eastern seaboard of America received throughout the war.

To complicate the large and small Ketland profile even further is when we see Berger from the Alsace and his Paris shop making smal head versions of the British castings. Bigger is better, so the larger crested eagles that are quite close in profile to the original form start appearing. Some directly from the continent and ala Salter S&K as agents, there is a fair amount of swapping going on.

I am not prepared to upload a lot more pictures in this thread, as I am on dial up but also that we will digress further. The Medicus collection book and Mowbray eagle book, along with Peter Tuite's naval book and the Hartzler Lattimer collection will show as much variety as any might then further explore. I can point the way and disagree at times but have no book of my own to offer at this time.

Here is an anomalous Berger pretty baby and an original Ketland type for comparison. Was it Starr shown in Medicus that also had a Ketland form? I forget. These are a good bit smaller than the later crested birds.

Cheers

GC

Norman McCormick · 10th November 2012, 06:45 PM

Hi Glen,
I did a swop for this sword but it was purchased at an auction in England in a lot with a 'cutlass thought to be American'. The buyer wanted the cutlass but not the eagle head and I had something he wanted so we exchanged. I'm afraid that is the only info re provenance I have.
I came across another couple of conflicts which would fit inside the time frame 1830's/40's, the Black Hawk War and the Texas Revolution. I noticed that the inside right angle on the simpler guards differ from plain to being accented with various small decorative details, wondering if this is a possible pointer to origin. Finally, I'm sure you will be aware of this little paper but here is a link anyway www.asoac.org/bulletins/92_bethune_patriotic.pdf
Thanks again for your time and effort on this.
My Regards,
Norman.

Hotspur · 10th November 2012, 08:38 PM

Quote:

I noticed that the inside right angle on the simpler guards differ from plain to being accented with various small decorative details, wondering if this is a possible pointer to origin

As much a matter of timeline perhaps. I think I did mention that parts from one side were openly shared, so origin of the final assembly might be better regarded when looking at the blade decoration. Coincidentally, I came across yet another like yours and while considering the blade decoration, I would still say that one as well British B&G. If you can share more of your blade decoration, others may have an opinion as to whether we are seeing a British or German decorated blade.

Yes, I am familiar with the asoac article and some of it is considered outdated, just as some older sword bibles are. Was there a particular part of the article you note that is relevant to this sword? Do you have the E.Alexander Mowbray eagle pommel sword book? While the latter does not specifically speak to this form, It reads well in terms f commerce and distribution.

I am sending you a link via pm for the one I saw just today while browsing a dealer.

Cheers

GC

6th November 2012, 10:51 PM	#1
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,597	American Eagle Head Sabre Hi, I have acquired this sabre and would like to know more about it. The net is not awash with info on these so any help would be appreciated. There is no name on blade or hilt. Bone grip which has been "restored" with car body filler which will require a bit of cosmetic attention. Nicks on the blade where one would expect them. Blade just shy of 30 inches long and 1 1/4 inches at widest. A fair amount of gilding left on the guard and pommel. I'm guessing European manufacture possibly second quarter of the 19thC and probably Solingen. Were bare blades imported into the U.S. and hilted locally? Many thanks for all and any help. Regards, Norman. Attached Images Last edited by Norman McCormick; 6th November 2012 at 11:12 PM.

7th November 2012, 05:48 PM	#2
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 499	Hi Norman These can be tricky to distinguish from where distribution/export to America happened. At first glance, I would say undoubtedly one of the Solingen consortium but then in seeing the bit of the blade decoration, the B&G looks like that was done in England. With S&K and other agents in England, it is not hard to figure at least parts of the sword were Prussian made. The spiral bone also more an English cutler trait. look close at the spine of the blade at the base and see if there is a little squiggle f a couple of lines. This is of the floating big head and although similar to the "Ketland" bird. I would think generally speaking it belongs to the 1830s or perhaps a little earlier. I am still (in a rather erstwhile fashion) looking at John Salter & Co of England, who really as a name belongs to an earlier period but the company remained as an exporter of swords to America well into the 1830s. The blade decoration of blue&gilt another consideration for a possible time but blades were made and decorated, then held in stock with some of this fasion still turing up in the 1840s and even later. The Prussian big head crested eagles do start to appear by 1812 but the b&g traits on the blades themselves can help to determine an early style vs post 1812 blades. E.Alexander Mowbray, author of the early/federal period of eagle head pommels book really does not go into this family, as even his and other's thoughts place them after his 1830 benchmark for the book. He does allude to heads like the "Ketland" but not as directly associated. Mowbray the younger and Flayderman then assemble the Medicus collection of swords and both leave a lot of leeway for speculation/investigation that still goes on. Both Solingen and Birmingham had so many shops going that it is only when a sword is specifically marked to a maker that some do get pigeon holed as Mowbray the elder did. Forever since, his chapters become a basic typology often based on a single marked sword. My big head backstrap eagle has a definitely Prussian blade and decoration, as well as possibly a good bit earlier b ut the slim blade will always make me wonder. This one possibly from the Knecht family and maybe the 1820s. Cheers GC Attached Images

8th November 2012, 05:45 PM	#4
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 499	You are welcome Jim. Eagles are pretty much a passion for me and while the later swords less recognized at times, a period I try to make sense of. Both the floating big crested and backstrap big head show up in British guise but I am certain many of the castings start in Solingen. The example I showed with the backstrap has the mouth opened up but the profile of the big heads undeniably similar between backstrap and floaters. Here is a floating pommel like Norman's that is similar to the A.W.Spies of New York swords. Spies was an apprentice as a teen in the Wolfe family shop of New York. He then went abroad to Birmingham and learned the business of export as well as cutlery but he was mostly interested in the import to his business which would blossom on his own. There is some information I am compiling about Spies and had at one point started a thread over at SFI. I have some false conclusions of my own even in that thread but the framework is there. http://www.swordforum.com/forums/sho...les-and-others So anyway, a big head floater ala Spies and Salter, undoubtedly from England but we know Solingen is makeing birds like this. I have several Spies marked backstrap examples and the big head floating pommels seem to be a lot less common to find. I can't say that makes them earlier or later but they were (perhaps) to mimic the screaming eagles of Ames which had floating pommels and the spiral or slash marked grips. The Ames artillery sabres and infantry spadroons are of this period. I will add some more examples of the floaters but I knew where to find this one in my Spies folder (I have some more scattered about in unsorted folders). I have a run to do today for my eyes to look for any floaters in the vitreous. This example may even be marked by a separate retailer but I'll have to look closer at that blade. The rest identical to several marked by Spies. Cheers GC Attached Images

8th November 2012, 08:58 PM	#6
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,597	Hi Glen, First of all many thanks for your time and effort in attempting to educate a poor Brit on the knotty subject of American Eagles. I have gone over the sword from top to bottom with the proverbial 'fine tooth comb' but cannot find any mark or sign that would provide a clue as to origins. I like the idea that it might be of English manufacture. You mention the spiral bone grip and I must say I've spent a few hours on the net looking at 'Eagle Heads' and have not found one with the same pattern spiralling. It would be nice to pin down a date as it would enable me to speculate in which conflicts it may have participated in but I can see from your posts that this is much easier said than done. I look forward to your other examples of 'floating heads'. Thanks again. My Regards, Norman. P.S. The second example you show has a very similar blade profile and angle of hilt to blade as mine, I don't know whether this is of consequence or not. Last edited by Norman McCormick; 8th November 2012 at 09:11 PM.

9th November 2012, 05:08 AM	#7
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 499	Hi Norman Something else you may have to consider if your sword was sold on your side of the pond would be; "What is an American sword of that period doing abroad?" One chapter of Mowbray's eagle book begins with an example of a sword specifically made for a Scotsman. Perhaps you can fill in some blanks yourself on how you came to own the sword and where it had come from. In America, other warring aside from the war of 1812 and up to the American Civil war would be notably the Seminole wars and the Mexican War. Throughout the interbellum periods were standing militia, as was also true in the UK. Swords were made up of many standard parts, some fancier than others. Often times there would have been a basic catalog of options, as well as "floor models" to choose from. I have already alluded to that the large head floating pommels are less common post 1812 but showed you an example while mentioning I have more in my own bank of images. You now bring up the spiral grip as uncommon and I agree but could list a few in my own files. MOst of this general time period and in a romp through one of my misc folders have a good match to your own sword. What does that mean in terms of scarcity? Not much. When you find a couple, chances are that if persistent they seem to come out of the woodwork. I mention in another post that eagles are a passion. That I have some 6,300 eagle sword image files in 41 folders must mean something. Divide roughly by whatever and that would still be many more than six hundred swords I am in the process of categorizing. Consider my prime focus of the eagle pommels to be those up to the war of 1812 and of three basic forms (Bolton, Osborn, Ketland), I will never have half the answers to a good many questions. Narrowing to a couple of decades should be an achievement and as you had already considered the 1830s, I think you may not have just been guessing. The langets might also point to Solingen as opposed to England but again, the blade decoration too Birmingham blue&gilt to disregard. The example I showed above has noo langets and a good many British made swords for the American market had no langets. That trait also prevelant in American manufacture. On that note, I seriously doubt it is American cutlered and eveb the Spies marked blades decorated and marked at that time in England, as that is how they were ordered. Along with your spiral big head, I'll also scare up an British made Ames imitator with a spiral grip. So close an imitator of the Ames swords that I was fooled in the beginning myself. That conflict worth a whole thread by itself someday but brought up here in the past. Why do I know that one British and not American Ames? More study and observation to be related someday. This one most assuredly the mid to late 1830s. Oh, ok, I lied. Here is one I am pretty sure was an Ames eagle casting but on a Mexican sword (Ames did collaborate with Mexico before the war. Cheers GC Attached Images

8th November 2012, 06:01 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	Thank you Glen for the great information on these! As Norman has noted, it is typically pretty difficult to find useful and pertinant material on these distinctive swords from a cold search, and I had hoped you would respond as these American sword topics are profoundly your field.

8th November 2012, 05:53 PM	#5
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 499	Also just to mention that they really do look like the older Ketland form and in time might be considered as a followup to the form as a type III but there is already enough confusion just between pre 1812 Ketland types and post war in the smaller head classification. Then you get into how much chasing of a casting a given shop might be doing. Cheers GC

9th November 2012, 06:53 AM	#8
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,097	Awesome pics and an excellent thread! Full of great information and pics on these type swords. I like the one with the Span colonial 6-sided broadsword blade. It's truly amazing just how many variations in the fittings and blades there are. Hope this thread continues to grow-

9th November 2012, 10:16 AM	#9
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 499	Well, I think I would digress a far distance from the original ID part of this but let's just say it the evolution for the American market really started after the revolution and the Great Seal was being broadly published. Since that form was not finalized until late 1782, it is then really not until the 1790s that we start to see both larger birds and eagle blade decoration starting to appear. Ironically, the bald eagle is not even well represented in the first Great Seal portraits with more and more created eagles appearing on the horizon. Ketland was an arms broker as much as a manufacturer and the swords were not even made in his shops. Guns were his stock in trade on that end of the equation. Birmingham had many shops churning out parts for the swords before the war of 1812 and even during that conflict, swords were still getting through to America from England. Manifested as barrels and trunks of canes and umbrellas, ports on the eastern seaboard of America received throughout the war. To complicate the large and small Ketland profile even further is when we see Berger from the Alsace and his Paris shop making smal head versions of the British castings. Bigger is better, so the larger crested eagles that are quite close in profile to the original form start appearing. Some directly from the continent and ala Salter S&K as agents, there is a fair amount of swapping going on. I am not prepared to upload a lot more pictures in this thread, as I am on dial up but also that we will digress further. The Medicus collection book and Mowbray eagle book, along with Peter Tuite's naval book and the Hartzler Lattimer collection will show as much variety as any might then further explore. I can point the way and disagree at times but have no book of my own to offer at this time. Here is an anomalous Berger pretty baby and an original Ketland type for comparison. Was it Starr shown in Medicus that also had a Ketland form? I forget. These are a good bit smaller than the later crested birds. Cheers GC Attached Images Last edited by Hotspur; 9th November 2012 at 10:30 AM.

10th November 2012, 06:45 PM	#10
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,597	Hi Glen, I did a swop for this sword but it was purchased at an auction in England in a lot with a 'cutlass thought to be American'. The buyer wanted the cutlass but not the eagle head and I had something he wanted so we exchanged. I'm afraid that is the only info re provenance I have. I came across another couple of conflicts which would fit inside the time frame 1830's/40's, the Black Hawk War and the Texas Revolution. I noticed that the inside right angle on the simpler guards differ from plain to being accented with various small decorative details, wondering if this is a possible pointer to origin. Finally, I'm sure you will be aware of this little paper but here is a link anyway www.asoac.org/bulletins/92_bethune_patriotic.pdf Thanks again for your time and effort on this. My Regards, Norman.