FAMOUS WEAPONS WITH PROVENANCE

Jim McDougall · 1st November 2012, 09:51 PM

Absolutely outstanding topic Barry! Much as every weapon has its stories to tell, there are many weapons which are attributed to famous persons or events, and often the research which supports these claims is fascinating.
However, it is certain to be mentioned that in many cases, the claims are disputed and have typically remained tangled in folkore and revisionist material.
Regarding Joan of Arc, I recall articles and research of years ago where it was thought her armor had been discovered, unsure of her sword but great tales about it which were in articles also or at least theories on it.

Referring to JIM Bowies fabled knife, 'the Iron Mistress', it wherabouts are unknown, but probably lost as a souvenier to a Mexican soldier and now gone. Obviously there are examples claimed to be the actual knife, one with the strongest claim at a museum in Little Rock I believe.
Davy Crockett is historically shown fighting to the end using his trusty flintlock 'Old Betsy" as a club.....it is now believed he actually survived bbut was summarily executed. As for Old Betsey or either of his other trusty flintlocks, they stayed behind and it is unclear what gun he was using at the Alamo.

Moving to gunfighters guns, fascinating myths! The most prevalent was of gunfighters notching thier guns with thier victories, not so. None of the guns that are provenanced to any of these characters show any such embellishments, and actually Bat Masterson probably perpetuated this when he would buy Colts and notch them to hawk to wide eyed thrill seekers.

The Buntline Special, the foot long barrel Colt presented to Wyatt Earp by pulp writer Ned Buntline (with four others to Masterson and other noteworthies) is a western mystery. It is known that he did not regularly carry it, nor did he use it at the OK corral (he used a Smith & Wesson, which was often even more popular than the Colt in many cases). It is believed that he lost it overboard in Alaska off the coast on a ship.

I hope others will join in, I know I have been obsessed with these kinds of researches as long as I can remember, so cant help rambling about them.

All the best,
Jim

VANDOO · 1st November 2012, 11:04 PM

ANOTHER INTERESTING SWORD WITH MUCH CONFLICTING HISTORY IS THE SWORD OF WILLIAM WALLACE ( BRAVEHEART). WIKIPEDIA HAD SOME INFORMATION BUT THE BEST I FOUND WAS IN ANOTHER FORUM I WAS NOT AWARE OF "NETSWORD". THE SWORD IN QUESTION IS IN THE NATIONAL WALLACE MONUMENT IN STERLING AND IS 5 FOOT 6 INCHES LONG AND WEIGHS 6 POUNDS OR 2.72KG.
THE HISTORY OF THE SWORD EVEN AFTER WALLACE WAS EXECUTED IN 1305 IS A COMPLEX AND INTERESTING ONE ENVOLVING KINGS AND THIEVES WHO STOLE IT TWICE. WALLACE WAS SAID TO HAVE COVERED THE HILT, SCABBARD AND BELT WITH THE SKIN OF ONE OF THE ENGLISH COMMANDERS AT THE BATTLE OF STERLING BRIDGE. IN 1505 KING JAMES 1V OF SCOTLAND HAD THE SWORD REHILTED AND A NEW SCABBARD MADE. LATER A MUSEUM HAD THE 1505 HILT REMOVED AND REPLACED WITH AN OLDER ONE. THE BLADE APPEARS TO HAVE BEEN MADE OR REPAIRED IN 3 PIECES AND HAS NO MAKERS MARKS OR FULLER WHICH ADDS TO THE CONFUSION. IT WOULD CERTIANLY HAVE TAKEN A LARGE MAN TO WIELD IT WELL AND WALLACE WAS SAID TO BE OVER 6 FEET AND UP TO 9 FEET TALL IN LEGEND.

HERE IS A LINK TO THE ARTICLE WITH MANY GOOD PICTURES
http://netsword.com/ubb/Forum12/HTML/000080.html

fernando · 2nd November 2012, 01:43 PM

This one exists and is real, but the owner was not the pretended one... still a Portuguese King, although three centuries later (1438-1481).
The sword is now in exhibition at the Oporto Military Museum.

.

Pukka Bundook · 2nd November 2012, 03:20 PM

Good morning Jim and all!

Re notched guns, etc;
The only one I know about,( and need to look up the details again!)
was a plains rifle supposedly belonging at one time to Joe Meek.
It was a full-stocked "Hawken" type, with (If I remember right) a 36" barrel.
The top of the barrel was inscribed in German something to the effect of , "For the protection of German Immigrants" (In German of course.)

On the right side of the trigger -guard there were three marks filed. These could reflect three deer, or whatever, or possibly three hostiles.
I believe that "J Meek" was scratched rather crudely into the stock, but don't remeber where.
This gun was described in Harold Pederson's book, "The Great Guns"

Vandoo,
The Walace sword is almost certainly much later, but it can be well understood that the museum wanted A sword to display!........and it would have to appear somewhat special.....(!)

Fernando,

The sword you show is very high quality.
Thank you for the photo. I had not seen that one before.

Richard.

karloj · 9th November 2012, 08:44 AM

Hello

I don't know how many revolvers Al owned, but this is one of them.

Al Capone revolver sells for £67,250 at auction

http://newslite.tv/2011/06/24/al-cap...or-6.html#more

Maybe not so famous gun, but certainly a famous ex-owner.

Jussi

.

David · 9th November 2012, 06:25 PM

This sword in a museum in Dijon is said to have once belonged to Jeanne d'Arc.

VANDOO · 10th November 2012, 05:16 AM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bowie_knife

THE ABOVE LINK IS WIKIPEDIAS INTERESTING HISTORY OF THE BOWIE KNIFE. JIM BOWIE AND HIS BROTHER REZIN BOWIE BOTH DESIGNED KNIVES AND THEY CHANGED AND IMPROVED THEM OVER THE YEARS. EVIDENTLY THEY COMISSIONED THE KNIVES AND AFTER JIM BECAME FAMOUS AS A KNIFE FIGHTER THERE WAS A DEMAND SO NO DOUBT MONEY WAS MADE AND THAT DROVE THEM TO CONTINUE TO CHANGE AND TRY NEW DESIGNS TO IMPROVE THE KNIFE AND MAKE IT MORE EFFECIENT AS WELL AS MORE ATTRACTIVE TO BUYERS.
THE FIRST BOWIE WAS DESCRIBED AS SIMULAR TO SPANISH LARGE BUTCHER KNIVES SOMETIMES CARRIED ON SHIPS BY SEAMEN AND PIRATES. (NO GAURD, NO CLIPED POINT AND WOOD RIVITED SCALES)
THE SECOND WAS COMISSIONED BY REZIN BOWIE AND THERE IS A COPY OF THIS FORM OF KNIFE AT THE ALAMO.
THE THIRD FORM WAS MADE BY JAMES BLACK AN ARKANSAWS BLADESMITH FROM A CARVED WOODEN DESIGN MADE BY JIM BOWIE IN 1830. IT IS THE FORM THAT MOST PEOPLE THINK OF AND IS REFERRED TO AS A COFFIN HANDLED BOWIE. IT IS POSSIBLE TO CONFIRM KNIVES MADE BY THE MAKERS SUCH AS JAMES BLACK BUT MORE DIFFICULT TO IDENTIFY A KNIFE ACTUALLY CARRIED BY JIM. THERE WERE EVEN SCHOOLS TO TEACH FIGHTING TECKNIQUES USING THE BOWIE DURING THAT TIME.
I DON'T HAVE PICTURES OF THE FIRST FORM BUT HAVE INCLUDED PICTURES OF FROM #TWO AND #THREE. FOR MORE INFORMATION SEE THE WILKIPEDIA LINK ABOVE. TYPE 3 AT TOP, TYPE 2 BOTTOM PICTURE

1st November 2012, 11:04 PM	#2
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	ANOTHER INTERESTING SWORD WITH MUCH CONFLICTING HISTORY IS THE SWORD OF WILLIAM WALLACE ( BRAVEHEART). WIKIPEDIA HAD SOME INFORMATION BUT THE BEST I FOUND WAS IN ANOTHER FORUM I WAS NOT AWARE OF "NETSWORD". THE SWORD IN QUESTION IS IN THE NATIONAL WALLACE MONUMENT IN STERLING AND IS 5 FOOT 6 INCHES LONG AND WEIGHS 6 POUNDS OR 2.72KG. THE HISTORY OF THE SWORD EVEN AFTER WALLACE WAS EXECUTED IN 1305 IS A COMPLEX AND INTERESTING ONE ENVOLVING KINGS AND THIEVES WHO STOLE IT TWICE. WALLACE WAS SAID TO HAVE COVERED THE HILT, SCABBARD AND BELT WITH THE SKIN OF ONE OF THE ENGLISH COMMANDERS AT THE BATTLE OF STERLING BRIDGE. IN 1505 KING JAMES 1V OF SCOTLAND HAD THE SWORD REHILTED AND A NEW SCABBARD MADE. LATER A MUSEUM HAD THE 1505 HILT REMOVED AND REPLACED WITH AN OLDER ONE. THE BLADE APPEARS TO HAVE BEEN MADE OR REPAIRED IN 3 PIECES AND HAS NO MAKERS MARKS OR FULLER WHICH ADDS TO THE CONFUSION. IT WOULD CERTIANLY HAVE TAKEN A LARGE MAN TO WIELD IT WELL AND WALLACE WAS SAID TO BE OVER 6 FEET AND UP TO 9 FEET TALL IN LEGEND. HERE IS A LINK TO THE ARTICLE WITH MANY GOOD PICTURES http://netsword.com/ubb/Forum12/HTML/000080.html Attached Images Last edited by VANDOO; 1st November 2012 at 11:20 PM.

2nd November 2012, 01:43 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	This one exists and is real, but the owner was not the pretended one... still a Portuguese King, although three centuries later (1438-1481). The sword is now in exhibition at the Oporto Military Museum. . Attached Images

9th November 2012, 08:44 AM	#5
karloj Member Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 7	Al Capone revolver Hello I don't know how many revolvers Al owned, but this is one of them. Al Capone revolver sells for £67,250 at auction http://newslite.tv/2011/06/24/al-cap...or-6.html#more Maybe not so famous gun, but certainly a famous ex-owner. Jussi . Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 9th November 2012 at 10:09 AM. Reason: Picture addiion

9th November 2012, 06:25 PM	#6
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,229	This sword in a museum in Dijon is said to have once belonged to Jeanne d'Arc. Attached Images

10th November 2012, 05:16 AM	#7
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bowie_knife THE ABOVE LINK IS WIKIPEDIAS INTERESTING HISTORY OF THE BOWIE KNIFE. JIM BOWIE AND HIS BROTHER REZIN BOWIE BOTH DESIGNED KNIVES AND THEY CHANGED AND IMPROVED THEM OVER THE YEARS. EVIDENTLY THEY COMISSIONED THE KNIVES AND AFTER JIM BECAME FAMOUS AS A KNIFE FIGHTER THERE WAS A DEMAND SO NO DOUBT MONEY WAS MADE AND THAT DROVE THEM TO CONTINUE TO CHANGE AND TRY NEW DESIGNS TO IMPROVE THE KNIFE AND MAKE IT MORE EFFECIENT AS WELL AS MORE ATTRACTIVE TO BUYERS. THE FIRST BOWIE WAS DESCRIBED AS SIMULAR TO SPANISH LARGE BUTCHER KNIVES SOMETIMES CARRIED ON SHIPS BY SEAMEN AND PIRATES. (NO GAURD, NO CLIPED POINT AND WOOD RIVITED SCALES) THE SECOND WAS COMISSIONED BY REZIN BOWIE AND THERE IS A COPY OF THIS FORM OF KNIFE AT THE ALAMO. THE THIRD FORM WAS MADE BY JAMES BLACK AN ARKANSAWS BLADESMITH FROM A CARVED WOODEN DESIGN MADE BY JIM BOWIE IN 1830. IT IS THE FORM THAT MOST PEOPLE THINK OF AND IS REFERRED TO AS A COFFIN HANDLED BOWIE. IT IS POSSIBLE TO CONFIRM KNIVES MADE BY THE MAKERS SUCH AS JAMES BLACK BUT MORE DIFFICULT TO IDENTIFY A KNIFE ACTUALLY CARRIED BY JIM. THERE WERE EVEN SCHOOLS TO TEACH FIGHTING TECKNIQUES USING THE BOWIE DURING THAT TIME. I DON'T HAVE PICTURES OF THE FIRST FORM BUT HAVE INCLUDED PICTURES OF FROM #TWO AND #THREE. FOR MORE INFORMATION SEE THE WILKIPEDIA LINK ABOVE. TYPE 3 AT TOP, TYPE 2 BOTTOM PICTURE Attached Images

1st November 2012, 09:51 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,459	Absolutely outstanding topic Barry! Much as every weapon has its stories to tell, there are many weapons which are attributed to famous persons or events, and often the research which supports these claims is fascinating. However, it is certain to be mentioned that in many cases, the claims are disputed and have typically remained tangled in folkore and revisionist material. Regarding Joan of Arc, I recall articles and research of years ago where it was thought her armor had been discovered, unsure of her sword but great tales about it which were in articles also or at least theories on it. Referring to JIM Bowies fabled knife, 'the Iron Mistress', it wherabouts are unknown, but probably lost as a souvenier to a Mexican soldier and now gone. Obviously there are examples claimed to be the actual knife, one with the strongest claim at a museum in Little Rock I believe. Davy Crockett is historically shown fighting to the end using his trusty flintlock 'Old Betsy" as a club.....it is now believed he actually survived bbut was summarily executed. As for Old Betsey or either of his other trusty flintlocks, they stayed behind and it is unclear what gun he was using at the Alamo. Moving to gunfighters guns, fascinating myths! The most prevalent was of gunfighters notching thier guns with thier victories, not so. None of the guns that are provenanced to any of these characters show any such embellishments, and actually Bat Masterson probably perpetuated this when he would buy Colts and notch them to hawk to wide eyed thrill seekers. The Buntline Special, the foot long barrel Colt presented to Wyatt Earp by pulp writer Ned Buntline (with four others to Masterson and other noteworthies) is a western mystery. It is known that he did not regularly carry it, nor did he use it at the OK corral (he used a Smith & Wesson, which was often even more popular than the Colt in many cases). It is believed that he lost it overboard in Alaska off the coast on a ship. I hope others will join in, I know I have been obsessed with these kinds of researches as long as I can remember, so cant help rambling about them. All the best, Jim

2nd November 2012, 03:20 PM	#4
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Good morning Jim and all! Re notched guns, etc; The only one I know about,( and need to look up the details again!) was a plains rifle supposedly belonging at one time to Joe Meek. It was a full-stocked "Hawken" type, with (If I remember right) a 36" barrel. The top of the barrel was inscribed in German something to the effect of , "For the protection of German Immigrants" (In German of course.) On the right side of the trigger -guard there were three marks filed. These could reflect three deer, or whatever, or possibly three hostiles. I believe that "J Meek" was scratched rather crudely into the stock, but don't remeber where. This gun was described in Harold Pederson's book, "The Great Guns" Vandoo, The Walace sword is almost certainly much later, but it can be well understood that the museum wanted A sword to display!........and it would have to appear somewhat special.....(!) Fernando, The sword you show is very high quality. Thank you for the photo. I had not seen that one before. Richard.