Origin of this dagger?

[Sajen]

Depend from how thick this tusks are. The handle I have shown for example is from a old thread and belong to Ganyawulung who stated that it is from this material. The handle from the dagger hilt in question is long & slender and surely can be carved from this material.

Antique elephant ivory have typical cracks. The handle from Ganya hasn't and the handle in question hasn't as well typical elephant ivory cracks, so I am nearly sure that both handle are not from elephant ivory. One sentence I have heard in Indonesia many many times: "When ivory don't have cracks it is recent or not from elephant!" The handle from the dagger Loedjoe have shown has cracks but this cracks are very different from cracks are shown from antique elephant ivory.

[David]

Originally Posted by Sajen

Depend from how thick this tusks are. The handle I have shown for example is from a old thread and belong to Ganyawulung who stated that it is from this material. The handle from the dagger hilt in question is long and surely can be carved from this material.

The tusks, from the numerous examples i have looked out, just don't appear to actually be particularly thick. Ganja may have stated it was dugong simply because someone told him that. What i am getting at is that something isn't necessarily something simply because someone has said so. Word of mouth information should always be questioned, shouldn't it?

[Sajen]

Sure, you are right. But have a look to both handle and than for example to your ivory pommel gunong, you will see that this are different materials. I am still not sure if it is dugong or whale but for sure not elephant or hippo, so what should it be?
Of course is it very very difficult to be sure by pictures and without handling the material. A 100% sure result you only will get by chemical/physical analysis.

[kai]

While sound experience often gives a quite ok answer within seconds, I agree that serious examination up to scientific standards would be preferable; DNA sequencing may even narrow down the origin (of the material if not the whole piece).

Regarding marine ivory, I guess that many pieces believed to be Dugong are much more likely sperm whale; the latter have been regularly caught throughout the archipelago and a single whale yields a lot of teeth while obtaining a really large male dugong seems less straightforward...

Regards,
Kai

[Sajen]

Hello,

just get a mail from my friend. He think that it is dugong or very old and worn hippo ivory. When you can see in the cracks black dots in a line it is hippo ivory. He say the look from up on the handle speak for dugong.
But he is like I am nearly sure that it isn't bone.

Like said before, it is difficult to give a save opinion by pictures only.

Regards,

Detlef

[Sajen]

BTW, he give also the hint that it could be a Nias knife.

[kai]

Hello Detlef,

Originally Posted by Sajen

BTW, he give also the hint that it could be a Nias knife.

Interesting suggestion - thanks!

With the missing silver bands and a likely replaced ferrule, there's not much left to base any origin on. IMVHO though, I don't believe in a Nias origin because the hilt/pommel doesn't seem to have any specific feature which could be safely attributed to (northern?) Nias craftmanship and also the blade doesn't strike me as typical, too. Just trying to keep the ball rolling - I'd love to be proven wrong and learn something new!

Any chance to take close-ups of those possible forging flaws or features of the blade?

Regards,
Kai

[kai]

Thanks for chiming in, ASH! Working this material with relatively brittle stone tools is certainly a feat! Any Polynesian examples that you can share?

Originally Posted by kai

Regarding marine ivory, I guess that many pieces believed to be Dugong are much more likely sperm whale

Originally Posted by David

I suspect that this is the material most often used where claims of dugong have been made.

Gimme five, David!

Regards,
Kai