African Brass dagger/Subsaharan

[Tim Simmons]

I got this today. It is heavily made like a mail piercing dagger getting heavier towards the tip to 4.5 mm. The total length of the dagger is 36 cm. It looks as if it would have hung from a belt? like anyother dagger. Knowing there was little shortage of iron in this part of Africa, I find the quality of this brass example most interesting. I suppose daggers like this will always remain a mystery as there has been little if any serious study of weapons or artifacts from this area . I hope some of you also find it appealing. Tim

[zalmoxis]

I have one with the same characteristc. It looks armour piercing. I think they are Mandingo based on the hilt decorations, but yours and mine very old.

[Ahriman]

Nice dagger, even as I prefer more curved ones. The 4.5mm thickness is interesting for me though - isn't it a bit too thin? What kind of mail would it be used against?
And the edges seem too paralell to me, especially compared to the steel one. Is it for backing up the weakness of the material, or for delivering good cuts as well as thursts?
You like mail-piercers very much, do you?

[Tim Simmons]

Yeah! I use the term mail piercing more as style to give an idea of the strength of the blade, untill Bill Gates and his crew make a glove that can send pressure feeling through a PC. Mandingo is a good source of origin, you only have to look in some learned journals from the 1960s 70s and 80s when swords from this area were still being labelled Sudanese. Tim

[Tim Simmons]

We take it for granted that one needs heat for most metalwork. What if you live in a desert or semidesert region? The demand for fuel wood makes fancy forge work rather a luxury, first you have to cook your food and keep your children and family warm at night. Tim

[zalmoxis]

This dagger were designed not to pierce mail but to go through mail and wound the person. Mine has a very long tip. Hausa from Northern Nigeria were using chain mail. There is a small book Nigerian Panoply discussing that.

The Mandinka/Mandingo are a people of West Africa, all descendent physically or culturally from the ancient Mali Empire, which controlled the trans-Saharic trade from the Middle East to West Africa. In the early 13th century, they were under the leadership of Sundiata. In the same century they spread from the area that is now Mali, carving out a large empire.

Currently, they number over three million and reside in many countries throughout West Africa: Burkina Faso, Côte d'Ivoire, the Gambia, Guinea-Bissau, Liberia, Mali, Senegal, and Sierra Leone. They are also found in small numbers in almost every country in West Africa.

Hausa are an ancient culture that had an extensive coverage area, and long ties to the Arabs. The Hausa have been Muslim since the 14th century, and have converted many other Nigerian tribes to the Muslim faith by contact, trade, and jihads.

The point of the above paragraphs is to show that the two cultures meet in Nigeria. Hausa people were using mail extensively and they were the most aggressive people of the region. They still are the ruling cast of Nigeria today.
In order to fight such enemy that is using mail you need a specialized weapon. This one!
This is not the only specialized mail piercing weapon. The old Flissa from the first half of the 19th century was like that. Used by the North African Berbers. It is clear that people were using chain mail since two such distant cultures had specialize weapons. Look at the pic.

[zalmoxis]

And this one!! Sorry!

[Tim Simmons]

Very informative summary Tim . Added. The French/Mandingo wars of 1885-1898 and a little more I think just after 1900, would have meant the British probably had to contain there Mandingo populations in what was then British West Africa. Tim

[Ahriman]

I'm sorry to inform you that most blades were made with almost no heat... The exceptions are those of the nobles and of the rich. A quite good example are europeans sword"smiths". They could make a razor-sharp, extremely good blade only with a little coal, a hammer, and an anvil, but they mostly made blades from machine-hammered slabs of steel which were later ground by grinders. This way one can make dozens of swords in a day for the same amount of money one'd get for a noble's blade, on which one'd work for weeks. And btw, they had water mills - they used it.
You know, even I could make a good katana blade without modern tools in a month, but instead, I make a dozen messers in a week... for the same money.

This means that a common soldiers blade, everywhere, even in africa, would be made with as little heat as possible, as, you're right, fuel is expensive, while files are not. And on fancy forge: if you're a noble powerful/rich enough, you can eat ice-cream even in the sahara...

[Ahriman]

zalmoxis: good summary indeed, and nice arms, but I beg... don't use the word "chain mail" anymore... it drives me crazy. It means chain mesh of chains...
(((and I'm quite crazy about armour names, especially when there's no such debate like the greave-vambrace thing.)))

[Tim Simmons]

Yes knives can be ground. Looking at my knives from the Sahara, they have all been forged. Water wheels in the Sahara Coal from the Sahara Charcoal from wood maybe, forrests in the Sahara I think even humble knives made in such an environment would be cared for things. Tim

[Ahriman]

Then they were possesions of a richer man...
Not only knives... swords as well. See the article on myarmoury.org.

[zalmoxis]

I will not use chain mail. If chain mail bad. But should I use only mail?
Guys dou you know this:
http://www.artmetal.com/project/Features/Africa/

[Tim Simmons]

Ahriman, I do not like to appear boastful, here is some of the work I get involved in. Silver gilt and hot enamel. Tim

[zalmoxis]

Very nice.

[Ahriman]

Of course, mail means mesh of chains, so it's correct.
Tim: extremely nice work! Unfortunatuly I didn't even had the chance to try making something this beautiful... for myself, it'd be a waste, as I'd beat it to pieces, for others... in a country where 100$ for a hot-peened longsword is " too expensive"... I get less than 1000$ for a gothic vollharnisch... but they want it to be as good as W.H. III's stuff...*
What kind of blade is it? I mean, sharp or not, spring or stainless, hammered or ground, etc?
BTW, could you tell me how did you make the pommel? It very nice, but I nearly can't beleive that someone could hammer out such beauty... And I love learning new things...
*(sorry for this, I'm just always angry because this. I can't even try making art-like pieces, as no-one would buy it here. This is kind of frustrating.)

[zalmoxis]

You sound like you are from my counrty

[Tim Simmons]

I was only one of many hands that went into making this. I made the handle, not just the head , the enamel pieces were added to it. Swords and knives do not land on my work bench that often. This is only the second in too many years I care to remember. It does have an edge but is not sharp nobody is going to use it. I will email you in the week for further discussion. Tim

[Ahriman]

zalmoxis: nah, I'm in a post-soviet country called Hungary... Where everyone who has more money than the average are hated more than killers. And it's not a joke that much.

Tim: Thank you very much! But why don't you make more? I mean, it's art, it seems like there somebody can afford it, I don't think you hate making such pieces...?

And back to on-topic : I had a question regarding thickness in your brass dagger. Isn't 4.5mm too thin? My sparring daggers are usually a bit thicker, but they are heat-treated spring steel, and even then, they used to break sometimes, even as we don't use edge-to-edge parrying. So 4.5mm seems strange to me. Is it because it's expensible? That would seem strange, as making new blades, or reforging used ones after one or two battles is quite insane in a fuel-rich area like that.
Or am I wrong, and this would last long? But then, how?

[zalmoxis]

Very interesting thing. Ahriman is a god. Zalmoxis also a god. In a country neighboring yours: Romania.

[Tim Simmons]

The handles of the Flissa swords that zalmoxis has shown are very different from the traditional North African type with the animal style head pommel. They are in the same style as this Mandingo sword. This most show how extensive an exchange of forms there must have been in the great dessert regions. I have finally obtianed a Flissa knife from ebay, if I am happy with it I shall post pics when it arrives. I do not know why it has taken me so long to get one. Tim

[zalmoxis]

Congratulation on the flissa. The picture with the handles of my flissas is not well done. They are actually of the same bird shape, with the brass striped only the wood still present.I had seen many flissas but I think this 2 are the oldest from the ones I had. The blade is unusual in both of them much heavier and the inlays very rich and well done. They came from a French collection. One of them has the back of the blade decorated with brass inlay and I have never seen one like it. Also the tips are unusual.

[Tim Simmons]

The Flissa I have comimg is nowhere near as old and impressive as zalmoxis, it is I hope of good basic quallity and pretty enough with a complete scabbard. It was cheap enough to have a punt on it, untill it arrives! Tim

[Tim Simmons]

I have just read that the Sahara is bigger than Australia, is that not amazing? Tim

[Mark]

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

I have just read that the Sahara is bigger than Australia, is that not amazing? Tim

Yikes! That is a lot of sand with no water in it Maybe I should say "Crikey!"

[Tim Simmons]

Yes puts another view of living on the edge Tim