1821 Variation for an Indian Officer Circa 1837?

Cathey · 21st October 2012, 05:17 AM

Hi Jim

Sorry can’t agree on the latter dating or German maker. I have a number of 1796 and early 1821 patterns (including a William 4th) and a 1796 beaked hilt and agree with the British collectors that this sword dates to 1815-21. The other obvious early indication is the stepped pommel, which by the 1880’s had lost the stepped effect and become more erect and actually appear rather stumpy to me.

Having the advantage of being able to put this one between the 1796 and the William the 4th has further convinced me of the earlier date put forward by a number of British specialist collectors. The other two forums I posted this on where able to provide examples similar to mine and the absence of the thumb ring has also enforced the transitional view point. I have one early German sword in my collection, however this sword really does not appear to have anything in common with those I have seen of German manufacture, so at this stage I remain convinced it is British.

I have attached a picture that includes four of my swords from that era including this one. From the bottom is the 1796 Beaked pommel, 1796 Quill Point, the 1821 being discussed and the 1821 William IV. The William sword still has its thumb guard and the blade is almost straight. I have also attached a picture of an 1821 that dates to the 1880s to demonstrate what I call a stumpy pommel.

The Cross at the Ricasso is interesting though and like you I thought it might have a Scottish connection. I did show the scrip to an Indian chap I work with and he did not believe it was Indian rather that it might be Persian, however I think it is probably just decoration.

Cheers Cathey

Richard G · 21st October 2012, 02:24 PM

My opinion, and it is only an opinion, is that this is a British sword from the 1820's - 1830's. However, the script is a problem. It appears to be decorative only, and for this reason I have doubts it has ever had much to do with the HEIC. The HEIC recruited it's officers from the educated classes in GB and put them through military type colleges in England, for 2 - 4 years , including the study of Indian languages, before they set foot in India. They could not be an officer in an HEIC regiment unless they spoke the lingua franca of that regiment. It seems unlikely an officer would risk ridicule by turning up with gibberish on his sword.
I think it more likely this was made for an officer in a volunteer or miltia unit, possibly one seeking association with a regiment that had Indian traditions, e.g. an Edinburgh unit associating themselves with the Royal Scots (1st Foot) which reurned to Scotland in 1830 after 10 years service in India.

Just my thoughts, and all wrong if this does turn out to be script!

Regards
Richard

Jim McDougall · 22nd October 2012, 12:01 AM

Cathey, thank you so much for this reply and especially for the remarkable grouping of examples of these British light cavalry swords. You are clearly a most discerning collector and the weapons you have presented have always been outstanding.
With these you have clearly shown I was quite mistaken on my impressions with these cavalry swords in the early 19th century. I retrieved many of my old notes and had entirely forgotten about the 'quill point' and 'latch back' blades. The term pipeback also is among the semantics in terms describing these. Apparantly in 1994 the late Geoff Worrall wrote an article in Classic Arms & Militaria on these swords with blades like yours, and termed them the 'Waterloo pattern' with officers carrying them c.1812-21.....exactly proving your assessment of a variant in the blades on the stirrup hilt M1796.
Clearly you and Richard are correct in your period classification.

In an article out of Classic Arms & Militaria (Vol.XIV, #2) titled 'The 1796 Light Cavalry Sword", somehow authors name not noted, it states that while the group of swords with these rounded back, pipeback or quill back blades do not present an official pattern, they were quite fashionable in the period just before Waterloo and represent move away from the pure cutting function of the standard 1796 hatchet point blade to a compromise of cut and thrust.

I will note that the rather rare sabre to 10th POW hussars of c.1810 (per Robson) had a blade with raised yelman (latchback) and the 27 swords ordered by the Prince of Wales (I have been told there may be as many as 41) for his officers. These were German blades with false damascene and mystical symbols believed to have been purchased from the cutler Robert Foster around 1798, with the swords hilted by Prosser. Apparantly some of the ' variant' blade 1796s were also mounted by Prosser, who was prominant and handled hilting of swords officially. Since he was primarily involved in mounting etc. his blades seem to have typically come from German sources. Perhaps these interesting blades were indeed German and prototypes for the later German patterns I described. The sources I have do not indicate blades on the earlier examples, nor possible existence of these on the Blucher sabres (1811).

The script remains a conundrum and while it does have a tempting similarity to some of the Naskh form, the characters bear resemblance to a number of these alphabets in Indian languages and dialects, such as Devanagari. It does seem possible that a rather stylized application might have been used to accent the false damascene apparantly popular around the time of the POW blades. It was also noted that acid etching was in place and that on one blade for an officer in India an image of a Mughal temple was included.
I think this also supports the style motif you have suggested.

Thank you for sharing this sword here, and giving us all (especially me

a chance to learn more on these early British cavalry swords.

All the best,
Jim

Jim McDougall · 26th October 2012, 05:19 PM

Before this thread drops away I wanted to thank you Richard for your input and Ibrahiim, as always for your support and participation.
Cathey thank you for visiting us here and sharing this interesting sword, but most of all as previously noted, for responding to my post. Hope we will see you again soon.

Bryce · 11th April 2018, 10:32 PM

G'day guys,

I thought I would resurrect this old thread as I have recently come into possession of an unusual British sword with very similar blade decoration. My sword has a blade which is 80cm long and 3.6cm wide and is recurved similar to a yataghan or sosun pattah. This recurved design provides a sword with a curved edge for cutting and a point which is more inline with the hilt for easier thrusting. This recurved design is very unusual for British swords and I have only ever seen one other from this period which was owned (and allegedly designed) by Lt Col Frederick Cavendish Ponsonby of the 12th Light Dragoons.

My sword has an unusual "mameluke style" hilt while most other examples of these pipe back swords have 1796 style hilts. These British 1796 style swords with pipe back blades and "mystical symbol" and "curling comet/foliage" designs can be dated back to as early as 1812/13. I have a theory that this "comet" design may be related to the great comet of 1811, which was a prominent feature of the European night sky in 1811/12. The comet was thought to have a positive effect on the growth of plants, especially grapes and wine vintages from the years when comets were seen were very sought after. This may explain the foliage designs which are combined with the comet in the decoration of these swords, although foliage is a very common component of most sword decoration from this period.

At least two swords with this decoration can be attributed to officers of the 12th light dragoons.

Ibrahiim, what led you to guess that Cathey's sword may have belonged to an officer of the 12th dragoons?

My sword has been professionally sharpened and came from France leading to the intriguing possibility that it may have been captured in battle, perhaps at Waterloo?

Cheers,
Bryce

21st October 2012, 05:17 AM	#1
Cathey Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: adelaide south australia Posts: 284	British Early 1821 Light Cavalry Hi Jim Sorry can’t agree on the latter dating or German maker. I have a number of 1796 and early 1821 patterns (including a William 4th) and a 1796 beaked hilt and agree with the British collectors that this sword dates to 1815-21. The other obvious early indication is the stepped pommel, which by the 1880’s had lost the stepped effect and become more erect and actually appear rather stumpy to me. Having the advantage of being able to put this one between the 1796 and the William the 4th has further convinced me of the earlier date put forward by a number of British specialist collectors. The other two forums I posted this on where able to provide examples similar to mine and the absence of the thumb ring has also enforced the transitional view point. I have one early German sword in my collection, however this sword really does not appear to have anything in common with those I have seen of German manufacture, so at this stage I remain convinced it is British. I have attached a picture that includes four of my swords from that era including this one. From the bottom is the 1796 Beaked pommel, 1796 Quill Point, the 1821 being discussed and the 1821 William IV. The William sword still has its thumb guard and the blade is almost straight. I have also attached a picture of an 1821 that dates to the 1880s to demonstrate what I call a stumpy pommel. The Cross at the Ricasso is interesting though and like you I thought it might have a Scottish connection. I did show the scrip to an Indian chap I work with and he did not believe it was Indian rather that it might be Persian, however I think it is probably just decoration. Cheers Cathey Attached Images

11th April 2018, 10:32 PM	#5
Bryce Member Join Date: Aug 2017 Location: North Queensland, Australia Posts: 187	G'day guys, I thought I would resurrect this old thread as I have recently come into possession of an unusual British sword with very similar blade decoration. My sword has a blade which is 80cm long and 3.6cm wide and is recurved similar to a yataghan or sosun pattah. This recurved design provides a sword with a curved edge for cutting and a point which is more inline with the hilt for easier thrusting. This recurved design is very unusual for British swords and I have only ever seen one other from this period which was owned (and allegedly designed) by Lt Col Frederick Cavendish Ponsonby of the 12th Light Dragoons. My sword has an unusual "mameluke style" hilt while most other examples of these pipe back swords have 1796 style hilts. These British 1796 style swords with pipe back blades and "mystical symbol" and "curling comet/foliage" designs can be dated back to as early as 1812/13. I have a theory that this "comet" design may be related to the great comet of 1811, which was a prominent feature of the European night sky in 1811/12. The comet was thought to have a positive effect on the growth of plants, especially grapes and wine vintages from the years when comets were seen were very sought after. This may explain the foliage designs which are combined with the comet in the decoration of these swords, although foliage is a very common component of most sword decoration from this period. At least two swords with this decoration can be attributed to officers of the 12th light dragoons. Ibrahiim, what led you to guess that Cathey's sword may have belonged to an officer of the 12th dragoons? My sword has been professionally sharpened and came from France leading to the intriguing possibility that it may have been captured in battle, perhaps at Waterloo? Cheers, Bryce Attached Images

21st October 2012, 02:24 PM	#2
Richard G Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 409	My opinion, and it is only an opinion, is that this is a British sword from the 1820's - 1830's. However, the script is a problem. It appears to be decorative only, and for this reason I have doubts it has ever had much to do with the HEIC. The HEIC recruited it's officers from the educated classes in GB and put them through military type colleges in England, for 2 - 4 years , including the study of Indian languages, before they set foot in India. They could not be an officer in an HEIC regiment unless they spoke the lingua franca of that regiment. It seems unlikely an officer would risk ridicule by turning up with gibberish on his sword. I think it more likely this was made for an officer in a volunteer or miltia unit, possibly one seeking association with a regiment that had Indian traditions, e.g. an Edinburgh unit associating themselves with the Royal Scots (1st Foot) which reurned to Scotland in 1830 after 10 years service in India. Just my thoughts, and all wrong if this does turn out to be script! Regards Richard

22nd October 2012, 12:01 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Cathey, thank you so much for this reply and especially for the remarkable grouping of examples of these British light cavalry swords. You are clearly a most discerning collector and the weapons you have presented have always been outstanding. With these you have clearly shown I was quite mistaken on my impressions with these cavalry swords in the early 19th century. I retrieved many of my old notes and had entirely forgotten about the 'quill point' and 'latch back' blades. The term pipeback also is among the semantics in terms describing these. Apparantly in 1994 the late Geoff Worrall wrote an article in Classic Arms & Militaria on these swords with blades like yours, and termed them the 'Waterloo pattern' with officers carrying them c.1812-21.....exactly proving your assessment of a variant in the blades on the stirrup hilt M1796. Clearly you and Richard are correct in your period classification. In an article out of Classic Arms & Militaria (Vol.XIV, #2) titled 'The 1796 Light Cavalry Sword", somehow authors name not noted, it states that while the group of swords with these rounded back, pipeback or quill back blades do not present an official pattern, they were quite fashionable in the period just before Waterloo and represent move away from the pure cutting function of the standard 1796 hatchet point blade to a compromise of cut and thrust. I will note that the rather rare sabre to 10th POW hussars of c.1810 (per Robson) had a blade with raised yelman (latchback) and the 27 swords ordered by the Prince of Wales (I have been told there may be as many as 41) for his officers. These were German blades with false damascene and mystical symbols believed to have been purchased from the cutler Robert Foster around 1798, with the swords hilted by Prosser. Apparantly some of the ' variant' blade 1796s were also mounted by Prosser, who was prominant and handled hilting of swords officially. Since he was primarily involved in mounting etc. his blades seem to have typically come from German sources. Perhaps these interesting blades were indeed German and prototypes for the later German patterns I described. The sources I have do not indicate blades on the earlier examples, nor possible existence of these on the Blucher sabres (1811). The script remains a conundrum and while it does have a tempting similarity to some of the Naskh form, the characters bear resemblance to a number of these alphabets in Indian languages and dialects, such as Devanagari. It does seem possible that a rather stylized application might have been used to accent the false damascene apparantly popular around the time of the POW blades. It was also noted that acid etching was in place and that on one blade for an officer in India an image of a Mughal temple was included. I think this also supports the style motif you have suggested. Thank you for sharing this sword here, and giving us all (especially me a chance to learn more on these early British cavalry swords. All the best, Jim

26th October 2012, 05:19 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Before this thread drops away I wanted to thank you Richard for your input and Ibrahiim, as always for your support and participation. Cathey thank you for visiting us here and sharing this interesting sword, but most of all as previously noted, for responding to my post. Hope we will see you again soon.