A keris, at last.

Sajen · 15th October 2012, 10:24 PM

Hello Alan,

I am not sure that the gandar is the original one for the atasan, have a look at the second picture posted by David. It seems to small for the atasan.

Regards,

Detlef

A. G. Maisey · 15th October 2012, 11:38 PM

Detlef, when we are dealing with low quality, village type dress we can find almost anything in the way dress is put together. Village people would often make dress themselves, or buy bits and pieces from a market, new, used, and assemble it themselves. Fit of gandar to atasan did not/does not need to be good because the thing is a dress item, and the joint cannot be seen when it is put in place in the setagen ( the sash around the waist where the scabbard is worn)
David R. clearly likes rather rustic things, he ID's himself as an "ethnic" collector, which in my experience means people like the stuff that still smells of cooking smoke. If I'm right about David R.'s preferences, then he's best to restore this scabbard as is, but if he wants to upgrade it to something that the vast majority of keris collectors prefer he should simply buy a new pendok and forget what's underneath it.

Henk · 16th October 2012, 07:58 PM

I completely agree here with Alan. David, just follow Alan's instructions. You won't regret it. Also the ukiran (hilt) is perfect and good for this dress. Don't replace it. But as David mentioned turn it 180 degrees.
This is such a lovely village made keris. I really like these.

David R · 16th October 2012, 10:15 PM

Hi everyone and again thanks for all the advice. The break in the gandar I intend to repair by putting in a new piece of wood, cutting away the broken edge to give me a clean join. I am considering making a complete new toe to the gandar, a buntut? in horn or ebony.
The urikan has been glued in place by a previous owner, so next job is to deal with that, and then I can clean the blade properly and turn the hilt to it's proper position.
I am toying with the idea of a pendok, but not too sure....I do wonder, even suspect it might have had one before that has been nicked. The only piece I really want to replace is the mendak, the one it has now looks to be a sad piece of stamped or spun brass, possibly not even a mendak originaly.
And that will be it, apart from getting the blade decently cleaned and stained. Oh, and oiling and polishing the wood. I use a mix of 2 parts real turpentine (artists quality) to 1 part artists quality linseed oil, the traditional English gunstock finish.

A. G. Maisey · 16th October 2012, 11:48 PM

David, its your keris, and of course you can do with it as you will, however, my advice would be:-

the join between the wood of the gandar and the infill should be irregular and of a darker colour, it would be possible to do a neat edge to edge infill, but it would be a very weak joint and in time it will separate; by feathering the edges of both the infill and the gandar hole and using araldite or similar a stronger bond could be achieved, however, in Jawa this hole would be repaired as I originally suggested, but it would be repaired with one of a number of different infill materials, rather than plastic putty, the plastic putty gives a better and more convincing finish than does the materials used in Jawa. What you are trying to achieve is a repair that looks like variation in the wood, a la timoho.

Javanese gandars do not usually use a buntut, when it is used it is simply a contrasting piece of wood joined very neatly to the foot of the gandar, this is occasionally done for artistic effect on artistic or high class keris, it would be 100% incorrect on this keris. I've noted the hole in the toe of the gandar, this is not uncommon in Javanese keris, when it is desired to fill it, it is usually filled with a slightly oversize wooden plug that is then shaped to a harmonious contour.

the handle is probably not glued, it is more likely to be held firm because of corrosion (rust) that has penetrated the cloth or hair packing used to hold it in place, there has been a lot written in these pages on freeing up a stuck keris hilt, possibly one of our better organised people here may be able to direct you to the relevant threads. If it is glued, the same methods will free it.

yes, it is entirely possible it might have once had a pendok, I feel it would restore to a more authentic finish without one, but if you do need one, PM me.

linseed oil and turps is a wonderful finish for gunstocks --- I used to make gunstocks in my misspent youth, and my father was a fine art cabinet maker, I do understand this finish--- the trad English gunstock finish was developed to permit exposure of the wood to inclement weather, we do not need this type of finish for a keris. The traditional Javanese finish is french polish, but on dress of a lower quality the finish is usually completely lacking, or perhaps only a bit of beeswax has been used. To achieve a good seal to the timber and a subdued, realistic look that does not obscure the wood grain, rubbed down Scandinavian oil is very effective. There is a problem with the name, because different manufacturers use different formulas, some use a combination of tung oil and linseed, some are just turps and linseed, others use urethanes as driers, some are all polyurethanes. I use Feast Watson which is a blend of polyurethane oils and waxes, this is an Australian company, I do not know the equivalent of their products in other countries. Its probably not a bad idea to use some good furniture wax after the finish has dried thoroughly.
Another really good product to finish a scabbard with is Birchwood Casey Truoil. This contains linseed and other unidentified products which I guess are probably driers. It brings out grain beautifully and after several very thin coats can be rubbed back to a subdued finish.
There are a number of problems with linseed oil and the old trad hand rubbed finish, some are short term, like the slow drying and the need to work on a finish for a very long time at spaced intervals to get what you want, the other is the tendency of a trad linseed finish to go mouldy in humid weather.
These days there are simply much better products available that will give you a better, more durable and easier to maintain finish.

the mendak is a perfect match to this keris, it should not be replaced.

David R · 28th October 2012, 07:41 PM

Got the grip off without damage, Three-in-one oil by the tang and used the candle trick I also put it ,well wrapped with clingfilm, in the freezer for a few hours, and that did the trick. Not glued, but the tang was well wrapped with a coarse plant fibre string which had rusted in place.

15th October 2012, 10:24 PM	#1
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,165	Hello Alan, I am not sure that the gandar is the original one for the atasan, have a look at the second picture posted by David. It seems to small for the atasan. Regards, Detlef

15th October 2012, 11:38 PM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Detlef, when we are dealing with low quality, village type dress we can find almost anything in the way dress is put together. Village people would often make dress themselves, or buy bits and pieces from a market, new, used, and assemble it themselves. Fit of gandar to atasan did not/does not need to be good because the thing is a dress item, and the joint cannot be seen when it is put in place in the setagen ( the sash around the waist where the scabbard is worn) David R. clearly likes rather rustic things, he ID's himself as an "ethnic" collector, which in my experience means people like the stuff that still smells of cooking smoke. If I'm right about David R.'s preferences, then he's best to restore this scabbard as is, but if he wants to upgrade it to something that the vast majority of keris collectors prefer he should simply buy a new pendok and forget what's underneath it.

16th October 2012, 07:58 PM	#3
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	I completely agree here with Alan. David, just follow Alan's instructions. You won't regret it. Also the ukiran (hilt) is perfect and good for this dress. Don't replace it. But as David mentioned turn it 180 degrees. This is such a lovely village made keris. I really like these.

16th October 2012, 10:15 PM	#4
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,116	Hi everyone and again thanks for all the advice. The break in the gandar I intend to repair by putting in a new piece of wood, cutting away the broken edge to give me a clean join. I am considering making a complete new toe to the gandar, a buntut? in horn or ebony. The urikan has been glued in place by a previous owner, so next job is to deal with that, and then I can clean the blade properly and turn the hilt to it's proper position. I am toying with the idea of a pendok, but not too sure....I do wonder, even suspect it might have had one before that has been nicked. The only piece I really want to replace is the mendak, the one it has now looks to be a sad piece of stamped or spun brass, possibly not even a mendak originaly. And that will be it, apart from getting the blade decently cleaned and stained. Oh, and oiling and polishing the wood. I use a mix of 2 parts real turpentine (artists quality) to 1 part artists quality linseed oil, the traditional English gunstock finish.

16th October 2012, 11:48 PM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	David, its your keris, and of course you can do with it as you will, however, my advice would be:- the join between the wood of the gandar and the infill should be irregular and of a darker colour, it would be possible to do a neat edge to edge infill, but it would be a very weak joint and in time it will separate; by feathering the edges of both the infill and the gandar hole and using araldite or similar a stronger bond could be achieved, however, in Jawa this hole would be repaired as I originally suggested, but it would be repaired with one of a number of different infill materials, rather than plastic putty, the plastic putty gives a better and more convincing finish than does the materials used in Jawa. What you are trying to achieve is a repair that looks like variation in the wood, a la timoho. Javanese gandars do not usually use a buntut, when it is used it is simply a contrasting piece of wood joined very neatly to the foot of the gandar, this is occasionally done for artistic effect on artistic or high class keris, it would be 100% incorrect on this keris. I've noted the hole in the toe of the gandar, this is not uncommon in Javanese keris, when it is desired to fill it, it is usually filled with a slightly oversize wooden plug that is then shaped to a harmonious contour. the handle is probably not glued, it is more likely to be held firm because of corrosion (rust) that has penetrated the cloth or hair packing used to hold it in place, there has been a lot written in these pages on freeing up a stuck keris hilt, possibly one of our better organised people here may be able to direct you to the relevant threads. If it is glued, the same methods will free it. yes, it is entirely possible it might have once had a pendok, I feel it would restore to a more authentic finish without one, but if you do need one, PM me. linseed oil and turps is a wonderful finish for gunstocks --- I used to make gunstocks in my misspent youth, and my father was a fine art cabinet maker, I do understand this finish--- the trad English gunstock finish was developed to permit exposure of the wood to inclement weather, we do not need this type of finish for a keris. The traditional Javanese finish is french polish, but on dress of a lower quality the finish is usually completely lacking, or perhaps only a bit of beeswax has been used. To achieve a good seal to the timber and a subdued, realistic look that does not obscure the wood grain, rubbed down Scandinavian oil is very effective. There is a problem with the name, because different manufacturers use different formulas, some use a combination of tung oil and linseed, some are just turps and linseed, others use urethanes as driers, some are all polyurethanes. I use Feast Watson which is a blend of polyurethane oils and waxes, this is an Australian company, I do not know the equivalent of their products in other countries. Its probably not a bad idea to use some good furniture wax after the finish has dried thoroughly. Another really good product to finish a scabbard with is Birchwood Casey Truoil. This contains linseed and other unidentified products which I guess are probably driers. It brings out grain beautifully and after several very thin coats can be rubbed back to a subdued finish. There are a number of problems with linseed oil and the old trad hand rubbed finish, some are short term, like the slow drying and the need to work on a finish for a very long time at spaced intervals to get what you want, the other is the tendency of a trad linseed finish to go mouldy in humid weather. These days there are simply much better products available that will give you a better, more durable and easier to maintain finish. the mendak is a perfect match to this keris, it should not be replaced.

28th October 2012, 07:41 PM	#6
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,116	Got the grip off without damage, Three-in-one oil by the tang and used the candle trick I also put it ,well wrapped with clingfilm, in the freezer for a few hours, and that did the trick. Not glued, but the tang was well wrapped with a coarse plant fibre string which had rusted in place.