Oldest dated flyssa - appeal to EU/Spanish forumites

[Wodimi]

Hi Emanuel,

thanks for your answer in the forum.
Unfortunately I also don't know how this weapons are once used. Once I read in a museum file used from foot soldiers and like a stabbing weapon. That makes sense to me, because of the mostly very long pointed tip.
I also don't know if the Kabyle once practiced beheading, but if so, this sword would be perfect for such a purpose. The length, the heavy weight and extreme stong blade, sharp on one side and up to 1 cm on the neck, all this points could speak for a beheading sword. Sure for close combat it would also work, but is with only 79 cm not so perfect. It could be also the reason, why you will not find so much of it.
Okay....all that only thoughts.....
Below a picture which show again the differences between a normal, a long and this heavy example.

Best wishes
Wolf

[Emanuel]

Hello Wolf (and Jim! we seem to have another flyssa enthusiast ),

You have a lovely flyssa set, they're all quite beautiful. Seeing the short one in comparison to the classic longer ones I find it quite appealing. It looks hefty and quite good as a short side-arm.

If you can read French I highly recommend this website, Algérie Ancienne it is a compendium of hundreds of contemporary French publications on Algeria spanning France's dominion over the Maghreb. It includes both ethnographic publications such as the Revue Africaine, and personal travel accounts and military reports. All documents are available for download in PDF format.

I have not yet found any clear mention of the use of flyssas but I have only read a dozen or so articles from that website.

I can send you a copy of Camille Lacoste Dujardin's article on "Sabres Kabyles" if you read French. It relates the account I mentioned in my earlier post about the beheading use of flyssas.

Best regards,
Emanuel

[Emanuel]

Hi Jim,

I've been in India now for close to a year now. Loving it! Haven't found any weapons though. They're illegal here and the police is quite serious about arms.

In regards to the flyssa, I wonder if there is some correspondence from the Spanish consul to King Ferdinand that might mention and explain the flyssa he brought back. There might be something there...and of course, the Ottoman archives might have loads of relevant information.

All the best!
Emanuel

[Wodimi]

Dear Emanuel,

thanks for your friendly words :-)
Even I don't speak French, I would be happy if you can send me a copy of Camille Lacoste Dujardin's article on "Sabres Kabyles". My friend Mauro from Italy speak French and together I'm sure we will work it out.
My email is wodimi@gmx.de .
You're right it would work effective as a short side-arm, no question.
Thanks at first and if you have time you can have a look (sure all other member too) under www.africanarms.com . I just started to build up a new page to share my passion with friends with the same virus.

Best
Wolf

[Ole S]

Hi, maybe this is coming somewhat late. Earlier in the thread you discuss the Flissa in the Real Armeria, Madrid that came as a gift in 1827.
I believe that it can be seen in the 1907 inventory by AF Calvert (“Spanish Arms and Armour Being a Historical and Descriptive Account of the Royal Armoury of Madrid. London. John Lane. The Bodley Head New York, Lohn Lane Company 1907). The Flissa has number 1604 and is shown on Plate 217 as shown in the picture.
Regards Ole

[G. Mansfield]

I am wondering why the description of 1580 is listed as "Dagger of the Kabyles", which is a yatagan, while 1604 is the flissa listed as "gourma, or dagger". Could this have been a mistake on as the tags do not correspond to the descriptions between these two? Has anyone previously noticed this?

-Geoff

[Jim McDougall]

Its always great to see these old threads brought to life, especially as we have made so many new discoveries and perspectives in learning more on these many weapon forms. As can be seen, this particular one began in 2010, but we had been discussing these flyssa long before that.

The Calvert work is actually a rework of the earlier inventories by Don Juan de Valencia, compiled 1898 but actually completed many years prior. These works of course, though valuable references in degree, are not without flaws and errors. ….those pointed out here notwithstanding.

In our quest to discover the earliest known flyssa, the 1827 reference which refers to the one presented to King Ferdinand VII by Don Pedro Ortiz de Guzasti who was special consul to Algiers at that time. If the photos seen in this thread earlier of the example are correctly noted, we can see that the flyssa as a form was surely established by this time.

It has been held that the flyssa itself likely evolved as an interpretation of the deep bellied yatagan of the Ottomans (cf. 1580). As I mentioned some years ago, there is in "Armi Bianchi Italiene" (Boccia & Coelho, 1975) a knife/dagger from Naples dated 1774 (#774) as I have attached.
This has a remarkably 'flyssa' like look, and perhaps it may be considered to have some sort of connection to these edged weapons of Algeria and the Kabyles.
Whether the well known influences of Italian trade in the Algerian littoral might have influenced the form as evolved in Kabylia, or perhaps the Italians saw a fully developed flyssa form and it influenced a dagger form they fashioned. It would be hard to say, but the similarity is compelling.

The flyssa itself, has long been a puzzle as to how it was actually used. As far as I have known, there have been no recorded observations of these used in combat. There is I believe a painting showing Kabyles wielding these but artistic license cannot be ruled out. One of these captured by the French Foreign Legion in 1857 , though taken, does not indicate it was taken in combat. These are terribly unwieldy weapons, and have seemed to be a weapon which is that of a rite of passage, more ceremonial or traditional item rather than actually used weapon.

It would be interesting to see others views, and/or examples, and thought it worthwhile to reopen the discussion.