Two Wootz Shamshirs for Comments

ALEX · 10th October 2012, 11:58 AM

I agree with you, Lotfy

A.alnakkas · 10th October 2012, 12:07 PM

Alex, do you have such hilts in your collection? I am developing an understanding on Iraqi style, which seems to make the pommel capless but this cant be 100% fact because you can find badawi and Syrian saif there though most move with tribal immigration or trade..

Thanks all btw! for helping and congrats :-)

Richard Furrer · 10th October 2012, 01:59 PM

Appears to be a lap weld to me (some call it a scarf).
I have one tulwar here I got from Gavin that has a rivet and a lap weld....I liken it to both a belt AND suspenders.

On a single blade I have seen from one to three such welds . Always in wootz to wootz...I have yet to hold one that was wootz to something else (though I have heard they exist). I have seen many many with welded tangs just not all that far from the hilt.
Keep in mind I rarely get out and about.

As an aside...I had a destructive bend test done on such a tulwar blade at a laboratory..it withstood as much deflection and pressure prior to breaking as the next four inches of the blade which had no weld. So, if the weld is sound, there is no loss of strength.

As to why they are done...could be
small ingots being used or
small end cuts of larger ingots or
repairing a broken blade or
????
I have not ever seen contemporary documentation on the subject...which may mean it was not important enough to note.

Ric

A.alnakkas · 10th October 2012, 02:09 PM

Hey Richard,

Thanks for the info, its really nice to know more about this!

Perhaps the blade was broken and had to be welded but the way the weld is makes me think that perhaps the smith used a more flexible steel for the hilt and ricasso and stiff wootz for the rest?

I would love to one day travel your way and learn all of this :-)

Richard Furrer · 10th October 2012, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

Hey Richard,

Thanks for the info, its really nice to know more about this!

Perhaps the blade was broken and had to be welded but the way the weld is makes me think that perhaps the smith used a more flexible steel for the hilt and ricasso and stiff wootz for the rest?

I would love to one day travel your way and learn all of this :-)

Hard to say why any particular technique was used on any particular blade, but I have seen enough "non-Museum" quality pieces to say that they were very much into repairing the broken rather than re-making them.

I am not on this list to sell classes or product I forge, but I thank you for your interest. I have benefitted greatly by the combined knowledge of this discussion site.

Ric

10th October 2012, 11:58 AM	#1
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	I agree with you, Lotfy

10th October 2012, 12:07 PM	#2
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,340	Alex, do you have such hilts in your collection? I am developing an understanding on Iraqi style, which seems to make the pommel capless but this cant be 100% fact because you can find badawi and Syrian saif there though most move with tribal immigration or trade.. Thanks all btw! for helping and congrats :-)

10th October 2012, 01:59 PM	#3
Richard Furrer Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Sturgeon Bay, Wisconsin Posts: 163	Appears to be a lap weld to me (some call it a scarf). I have one tulwar here I got from Gavin that has a rivet and a lap weld....I liken it to both a belt AND suspenders. On a single blade I have seen from one to three such welds . Always in wootz to wootz...I have yet to hold one that was wootz to something else (though I have heard they exist). I have seen many many with welded tangs just not all that far from the hilt. Keep in mind I rarely get out and about. As an aside...I had a destructive bend test done on such a tulwar blade at a laboratory..it withstood as much deflection and pressure prior to breaking as the next four inches of the blade which had no weld. So, if the weld is sound, there is no loss of strength. As to why they are done...could be small ingots being used or small end cuts of larger ingots or repairing a broken blade or ???? I have not ever seen contemporary documentation on the subject...which may mean it was not important enough to note. Ric

10th October 2012, 02:09 PM	#4
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,340	Hey Richard, Thanks for the info, its really nice to know more about this! Perhaps the blade was broken and had to be welded but the way the weld is makes me think that perhaps the smith used a more flexible steel for the hilt and ricasso and stiff wootz for the rest? I would love to one day travel your way and learn all of this :-)