Very odd Sudanese sword for discussion

Norman McCormick · 9th October 2012, 03:08 PM

Hi,
What disturbs me most about this is the provenance now attached to this item. If enough "experts" quote previous sale history, well, we all know what tends to happen.
Regards,
Norman.

Jim McDougall · 9th October 2012, 06:38 PM

What Norman says rings most true, the sale catalogues of auctions as well as often highly regarded dealers are quite often cited as supporting sources for identifying and classifying weapons. The reason obviously is based on the presumption of reputation and constant exposure to many variants and anamolous examples which exceed the published resources typically referred to.

I find this most disturbing as I have always regarded this particular auction house as remarkably distinguished, and thier assessments quite accurate. It seems that in recent years with the dramatic changes in geoeconomic circumstances, there have been huge changes in arms collecting related more to investing than in bonified collecting. The prices being realized in some sales are in many cases beyond belief, and most disturbing is that many of the items involved are either overvalued or questionably assessed, with authenticity equally compromised.

Regarding this particular case my questions would be, first why would a Mahdist sword, particularly of this stature, be in the collection of Heinrich Schliemann? A German businessman who was during the time of the Mahdiyya involved in excavations in Hissarlik, Turkey, with the Ottomans clearly at odds with these movements in Sudan. It seems that Schliemann was himself at some odds with the Turkish government with his own circumstances, so unlikely this might have been something captured or taken, and somehow presented to him for some reason. He died in 1890, which would have precluded any addition to his collection at that point.

Aside from the provenance, in returning to the sword itself, it seems quite possible this might be an authentic blade, with the only concerns being with the described lion in roundel marking, which I presume to be the Lion of God symbol used on the Assad Adullah trade blades, typically on shamshir or sabre blades. I personally have never seen this kind of 'trade' marking on a broadsword blade.
The hilt is of course perplexing especially with the remarkable similarity to the Del Tin production, which seems to closely follow the Viking type hilt mentioned. The interesting projections from the crossguard recall similar seen on early Omani sa'if (proto-kattara) and it is of course impossible to say if this influence was in mind in producing this anomaly.

I must admit being disappointed at this outcome, as I had hoped for the possibility of an interesting variant to the typically seen kaskara and broadswords of the Sudan. Personally I would consider this situation with this particular auction as much an amomaly as the sword itself, as I have often been well served with the descriptions they have provided me over many years.

Tim Simmons · 9th October 2012, 06:47 PM

I find it hard to believe even a silver hilted Kaskara being worth much more than a £1000. I have heard that the "market" is often prejudice and ignorant or at least bias and ill-informed which we see quite often with the commonest items finding high prices.

Iain · 10th October 2012, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi,
What disturbs me most about this is the provenance now attached to this item. If enough "experts" quote previous sale history, well, we all know what tends to happen.
Regards,
Norman.

I agree completely. The curious thing to me is, as Jim notes, how this ended up being collected by Heinrich Schliemann - if it even was? Very, very odd...

9th October 2012, 03:08 PM	#1
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,613	Hi, What disturbs me most about this is the provenance now attached to this item. If enough "experts" quote previous sale history, well, we all know what tends to happen. Regards, Norman.

9th October 2012, 06:38 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	What Norman says rings most true, the sale catalogues of auctions as well as often highly regarded dealers are quite often cited as supporting sources for identifying and classifying weapons. The reason obviously is based on the presumption of reputation and constant exposure to many variants and anamolous examples which exceed the published resources typically referred to. I find this most disturbing as I have always regarded this particular auction house as remarkably distinguished, and thier assessments quite accurate. It seems that in recent years with the dramatic changes in geoeconomic circumstances, there have been huge changes in arms collecting related more to investing than in bonified collecting. The prices being realized in some sales are in many cases beyond belief, and most disturbing is that many of the items involved are either overvalued or questionably assessed, with authenticity equally compromised. Regarding this particular case my questions would be, first why would a Mahdist sword, particularly of this stature, be in the collection of Heinrich Schliemann? A German businessman who was during the time of the Mahdiyya involved in excavations in Hissarlik, Turkey, with the Ottomans clearly at odds with these movements in Sudan. It seems that Schliemann was himself at some odds with the Turkish government with his own circumstances, so unlikely this might have been something captured or taken, and somehow presented to him for some reason. He died in 1890, which would have precluded any addition to his collection at that point. Aside from the provenance, in returning to the sword itself, it seems quite possible this might be an authentic blade, with the only concerns being with the described lion in roundel marking, which I presume to be the Lion of God symbol used on the Assad Adullah trade blades, typically on shamshir or sabre blades. I personally have never seen this kind of 'trade' marking on a broadsword blade. The hilt is of course perplexing especially with the remarkable similarity to the Del Tin production, which seems to closely follow the Viking type hilt mentioned. The interesting projections from the crossguard recall similar seen on early Omani sa'if (proto-kattara) and it is of course impossible to say if this influence was in mind in producing this anomaly. I must admit being disappointed at this outcome, as I had hoped for the possibility of an interesting variant to the typically seen kaskara and broadswords of the Sudan. Personally I would consider this situation with this particular auction as much an amomaly as the sword itself, as I have often been well served with the descriptions they have provided me over many years.

9th October 2012, 06:47 PM	#3
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,842	I find it hard to believe even a silver hilted Kaskara being worth much more than a £1000. I have heard that the "market" is often prejudice and ignorant or at least bias and ill-informed which we see quite often with the commonest items finding high prices.