Armour?

Aqtai · 15th September 2005, 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by B.I

i too agree that to use the term 'unquestionably' is just asking for trouble.
i have no interest in the martial or religious aspect of arms, and so when i study or inspect, i do so from an 'antiques' point of view.
i felt urged to respond to hams statement, but thought it best to wait a short while, to prove my point to myself before bowling in. i visited a friend of mine, who as a good collection of ottoman armour. on the phone, we discussed this point and he completely agreed with me. between us, we have handled many and whilst my taste is always indian, he does own a few sets and a couple of single 'vambraces'.
so, i visited him and he chuckled at ham committing himself so forcefully, all the way up to putting them onto our legs (never done in the antiques world - much frowned upon is the wearing of antiques :-) and they fitted perfectly. this was to both our amazement as we were so confident in our initial judgement. because he owned a few sets, we were able to repeat the experiment and there left no doubt in our minds that we were wrong.
i must say he was more in shock than i. as it is his specialist field :-) but we were both happy to admit out misjudgement, and laugh about it.
its funny, i fight against pre-judgement and following without questioning and it seems we are all guilty of it.
this doesnt proeve that your opinion (aqtai and ham) is correct, but it means my friend and i are now on your side :-)
apologies, and humble, as ever.

I would call it a bit of experimental archaeology...

It is definitely further evidence to support the "greave" argument. Oh BTW, I'm deeply envious of your friend.

ham · 15th September 2005, 09:45 PM

Gentlemen,

As a scholar, I agree it is dangerous to make such definite statements; my intention in doing so was to stimulate thought and hopefully, to compel someone out there to try a practical application, which happily, it has.
Basing or assuming the correctness of a museum display on its nation of origin, as a member has done above, is likewise dangerous-- beginners especially would be well advised to avoid this at all costs. However rather than criticise museums which shows these calf plates as armguards (and there are a great many,) I would say simply that there are very few specialists who actually apply critical reasoning to the field. Among the best are the Topkapi Palace Museum, Istanbul, the Royal Armouries, Leeds and the arms and armour section of the Met Museum, New York.

Sincerely,

Ham

Ahriman · 15th September 2005, 10:30 PM

Sorry, I mostly believe the museum which has the same nationality as the item... I understand that it's not a very good thing now but I still can't understand how can a museum be unsure about it's national arms... it'd be almost ok to make an error with foreign armour, but with their own...

I agree, and I mentioned that before, that they make sense as greaves - but I mentioned as well that a short one (like the one I posted before) was quite comfortable for me for fighting. It was, of course, a quite modern one (as I made it

) so most likely it resembles the originals only a bit. IF I had the chance to at least SEE originals personally from more angles and in full size then it's quite likely that I'd be convinced.

But as I don't have the chance, and it worked for me as a vambrace, I can only say that they can be either. Now, if you really want to convince me, send me a few originals so I can try them on! Unfortunatuly I won't be able to send them back...

(((I always like to learn new things... I have never thought of them as greaves before, and now, I'll be the first in Hungary who will use them. Thanks.

)))

Aqtai · 15th September 2005, 11:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ahriman

Sorry, I mostly believe the museum which has the same nationality as the item... I understand that it's not a very good thing now but I still can't understand how can a museum be unsure about it's national arms... it'd be almost ok to make an error with foreign armour, but with their own...

I agree, and I mentioned that before, that they make sense as greaves - but I mentioned as well that a short one (like the one I posted before) was quite comfortable for me for fighting. It was, of course, a quite modern one (as I made it

) so most likely it resembles the originals only a bit. IF I had the chance to at least SEE originals personally from more angles and in full size then it's quite likely that I'd be convinced.

But as I don't have the chance, and it worked for me as a vambrace, I can only say that they can be either. Now, if you really want to convince me, send me a few originals so I can try them on! Unfortunatuly I won't be able to send them back...

(((I always like to learn new things... I have never thought of them as greaves before, and now, I'll be the first in Hungary who will use them. Thanks.

)))

Most of these things are 350+ years old, people tend to forget how they they were used. Further more they've only been valuable antiques for the last 125 years or so, prior to that they were just seen as worthless pieces of obsolete military equipment, another reason to forget how to use them.

By the way this picture is from the Museo Stibbert in Florence, I think it's actually quite old, I have a feeling that things have been re-arranged there. Take a look at what the equestrian figure has on his legs.

Ahriman · 15th September 2005, 11:52 PM

I don't think that they'd remember using it - but I'd think that they have more written source on it.
And, you know, most of the hungarian kids I know can't even find the difference between a german and an italian harness, but they recognise a hussar breastplate at the first glance, because lots of our 16th century heroes wore those... I'm a bit tired to express myself good enough, but I think you can understand what I mean. Every nation has it's heroic stories, myths, etc, and there's always at least one hero whose arms and armour is mentioned.

Ahriman · 15th September 2005, 11:57 PM

Oh, and nice suits on that photo. I see what you mean... but here it looks strange to me, I don't know why. Size's good, and everything, and still... it may be simply the light, but it seems to me that the bigger curve is on the front.

Now, all this means that I have the same lower arm proportions as a 16th century turkis warriors CALF??? Because the main idea in thinking that my posted pic is a vambrace is that it'd fit my arm perfectly..?
BTW, did you explore the full rubens server? It has tons of pics on armour, unfortunatuly, most are europeans.

Aqtai · 19th September 2005, 02:52 PM

I had a look at the Ruben's server, there is a vast amount of stuff there, I'm quite impressed.

BTW on one of my google searches for pictures of oriental armour. I found this website. It has loads of photos of Russian krugs.
http://jeffmartin.com/Default.aspx?t...7c0%7c5%7c1%7c

15th September 2005, 09:45 PM	#2
ham Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 190	Gentlemen, As a scholar, I agree it is dangerous to make such definite statements; my intention in doing so was to stimulate thought and hopefully, to compel someone out there to try a practical application, which happily, it has. Basing or assuming the correctness of a museum display on its nation of origin, as a member has done above, is likewise dangerous-- beginners especially would be well advised to avoid this at all costs. However rather than criticise museums which shows these calf plates as armguards (and there are a great many,) I would say simply that there are very few specialists who actually apply critical reasoning to the field. Among the best are the Topkapi Palace Museum, Istanbul, the Royal Armouries, Leeds and the arms and armour section of the Met Museum, New York. Sincerely, Ham

15th September 2005, 10:30 PM	#3
Ahriman Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Hungary Posts: 72	Sorry, I mostly believe the museum which has the same nationality as the item... I understand that it's not a very good thing now but I still can't understand how can a museum be unsure about it's national arms... it'd be almost ok to make an error with foreign armour, but with their own... I agree, and I mentioned that before, that they make sense as greaves - but I mentioned as well that a short one (like the one I posted before) was quite comfortable for me for fighting. It was, of course, a quite modern one (as I made it ) so most likely it resembles the originals only a bit. IF I had the chance to at least SEE originals personally from more angles and in full size then it's quite likely that I'd be convinced. But as I don't have the chance, and it worked for me as a vambrace, I can only say that they can be either. Now, if you really want to convince me, send me a few originals so I can try them on! Unfortunatuly I won't be able to send them back... (((I always like to learn new things... I have never thought of them as greaves before, and now, I'll be the first in Hungary who will use them. Thanks. )))

15th September 2005, 11:52 PM	#5
Ahriman Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Hungary Posts: 72	I don't think that they'd remember using it - but I'd think that they have more written source on it. And, you know, most of the hungarian kids I know can't even find the difference between a german and an italian harness, but they recognise a hussar breastplate at the first glance, because lots of our 16th century heroes wore those... I'm a bit tired to express myself good enough, but I think you can understand what I mean. Every nation has it's heroic stories, myths, etc, and there's always at least one hero whose arms and armour is mentioned.

15th September 2005, 11:57 PM	#6
Ahriman Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Hungary Posts: 72	Oh, and nice suits on that photo. I see what you mean... but here it looks strange to me, I don't know why. Size's good, and everything, and still... it may be simply the light, but it seems to me that the bigger curve is on the front. Now, all this means that I have the same lower arm proportions as a 16th century turkis warriors CALF??? Because the main idea in thinking that my posted pic is a vambrace is that it'd fit my arm perfectly..? BTW, did you explore the full rubens server? It has tons of pics on armour, unfortunatuly, most are europeans.

19th September 2005, 02:52 PM	#7
Aqtai Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Merseyside, UK Posts: 222	I had a look at the Ruben's server, there is a vast amount of stuff there, I'm quite impressed. BTW on one of my google searches for pictures of oriental armour. I found this website. It has loads of photos of Russian krugs. http://jeffmartin.com/Default.aspx?t...7c0%7c5%7c1%7c