Shamshir information needed

AJ1356 · 22nd September 2012, 04:30 PM

Jaques,
You don't have to give it to the Salvation Army, You can always send it to me.
The text is quite interesting. On the last picture the text is not complete, so a petter picture would help, also any other text that has not been translated take pics of it and I'll take care of it.
Here is what we got from now.
این شمشیر یادکار سرکار بلند اقتدار میر مراد علی خان تالپر والی ملک سند بجهته عالیجاه جیمس برنس صاحب بجهته اخوی ارجمند الکسندر برنس صاحب بدیدارت
سرکار میر مراد علی خان تالپر مدد یا علی علیه السلام

So basically this was sort of a gift from one guy to this other guy's brother. Trans { This shamshir is a "gift" (it say a memory from) high powered overseer Mir Murad Ali Khan Taalper Governor of Sindh (which is now the pakistani and indian panjabs) for High placed sir James Burns for his dear brother sir Alexander Burns} "Till we meet" <---- not exact trans but close enough that is why I put it in qoutations. I used lowered case S for Sir, because the person may not have been knighted but the word Saaheb is used in that manner.
Overseer Mir Murad Ali Khan Taalper Help O Ali Alaih e Salaam
I used overseer because it is the direct translation for the word Sarkaar, but It used to be a title as well mainly from those of high station in government. The guy is the governor, of a what was one of British India major provences.

So this could shadder the whole idea of the hilt being a later addition, the hilt and the fittings could have been made at the time the blade was made. Also it shadder the 1600's time frame I offered.

AJ1356 · 22nd September 2012, 04:44 PM

The Arabic Text from the spine,

قاتلوا الذین لا یومنون با لله و لا بالیوم الآخر و لا یحرمون ما حرم الله و رسوله و لا یدینون دین الحق

The native Arabs can correct my limited Arabic but here is a try,

Kill this that don't believe in God and the Last Day( day of judgement) and don't respect? the Sanctuary of God and his Messenger and ....... the right religion.

AJ1356 · 22nd September 2012, 04:55 PM

First picture in the post,
تا حیاتت این تیغ نامدار
بر میانت از برادر یادگار
Till your life this "famous" blade
Would remain a memory from (your) brother

گر یار در جنگ یزدان بود
----------- چندان بود
If God is your friend in Combat
hidden behind the hand guard) would be many

Get me the pther pictures I asked, there is a mention of Alexamder the Mecedonian and The fountain of Life.

VANDERNOTTE · 22nd September 2012, 10:53 PM

I would like to thank once again everybody for your help and specially AJ1356 for the translations! It gives me a new perspeftive about the blade and its origins.

It´s possible that the blade arrived to this side of the world during Independence of Peru. Some french and english were fighting for independence causes, between 1821 and 1824.

Jacques

Richard G · 23rd September 2012, 01:30 PM

Just a small correction to AJ1356's post no.17. Sindh is a separate province, south of the Punjab. It's capital is Karachi.
It was taken by Sir Charles Napier for the E.I.C. in 1843. The family name of the defeated Amirs of Scinde was Talpeer.
Alexander Burnes was an explorer who travelled up the Indus and through the Himalayas to Bukhara and Persia, writing a memoir of his travels. He was appointed by the E.I.C. to Scinde as political agent. He was then sent to Kabul(Afghanistan) to help establish Shah Shuja as a pro British ruler. He was assasinated during an insurrection in 1841 which precipitated the evacuation of the E.I.C. contingent from Kabul. Of 17,000, only 40 managed to get back across the Khyber pass.
So, not only a beautiful sword, but also one of historic significance.
Regards
Richard
PS Alexander Burns was apparently none as "Sekundar" Burnes which may explain the refernce to Alexander the Great.

AJ1356 · 23rd September 2012, 03:22 PM

Richard, what happened to james Burns then, form the text it seems like the governor knew James Burns not Alexander Burns.

Richard G · 23rd September 2012, 07:13 PM

AJ1356,
Dr James Burnes was an elder brother of Alexander Burnes. He was certainly active in Bombay about this time and may well have visited Scinde, He is most famous (?) for being a prominent Freemason and founding the first lodge open to non-europeans in Bombay in 1843.

In my opinion this is an old blade valued by the Talpeers and inscribed on their instruction around 1843, and three reasons spring to mind:-
1, They had geniune respect for his brother Alexander.
2, It could have been diplomatically advantageous to keep a British official "onside" in 1842/3.
3, the Masonic connection.
It seems unlikely that they would have presented a blade only, but the mounts and scabbard fittings are definitely English from around this time, in the style of a British mameluke hilted General Officers sword (pattern 1831) which also became a popular pattern for diplomatic dress etc.

I think this sword, despite it's lack of scabbard, could fetch significant money (in my terms, anyway) on the London art market and is certainly worth further investigation, e.g. is there an important Peruvian connection?
Regards
Richard

PS, You know, looking back at the pictures, I'm not so sure the hilt and fittings are English:-
1, the scabbard fittings look like Bombay or Kutch work if you ignore the armorial,
2, the overall curve of the hilt is not what you would expect from an English maker,
3, the langets look a bit thin and the hilt seems to be seated in a a black lac.

Intriguing?

Dom · 23rd September 2012, 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VANDERNOTTE

It´s possible that the blade arrived to this side of the world during Independence of Peru. Some french and english were fighting for independence causes, between 1821 and 1824.

Hi Jacques
I have recognized the "patte" of French furbisher of the Empire time on the handle

à +

Dom

spiral · 23rd September 2012, 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AJ1356

Jaques,
You don't have to give it to the Salvation Army, You can always send it to me.
The text is quite interesting. On the last picture the text is not complete, so a petter picture would help, also any other text that has not been translated take pics of it and I'll take care of it.
Here is what we got from now.
این شمشیر یادکار سرکار بلند اقتدار میر مراد علی خان تالپر والی ملک سند بجهته عالیجاه جیمس برنس صاحب بجهته اخوی ارجمند الکسندر برنس صاحب بدیدارت
سرکار میر مراد علی خان تالپر مدد یا علی علیه السلام

So basically this was sort of a gift from one guy to this other guy's brother. Trans { This shamshir is a "gift" (it say a memory from) high powered overseer Mir Murad Ali Khan Taalper Governor of Sindh (which is now the pakistani and indian panjabs) for High placed sir James Burns for his dear brother sir Alexander Burns} "Till we meet" <---- not exact trans but close enough that is why I put it in qoutations. I used lowered case S for Sir, because the person may not have been knighted but the word Saaheb is used in that manner.
Overseer Mir Murad Ali Khan Taalper Help O Ali Alaih e Salaam
I used overseer because it is the direct translation for the word Sarkaar, but It used to be a title as well mainly from those of high station in government. The guy is the governor, of a what was one of British India major provences.

So this could shadder the whole idea of the hilt being a later addition, the hilt and the fittings could have been made at the time the blade was made. Also it shadder the 1600's time frame I offered.

Nice find. mmm... From, wiki....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Burnes

spiral

Alexander Burns.

His proposal in 1829 to undertake a journey of exploration through the valley of the Indus River was not carried out for political reasons; but in 1831 he was sent to Lahore with a present of horses from King William IV to Maharaja Ranjit Singh. The British claimed that the horses would not survive the overland journey, so they were allowed to transport the horses up the Indus and used the opportunity to secretly survey the river. In the following years, in company with Mohan Lal, his travels continued through Afghanistan across the Hindu Kush to Bukhara (in what is modern Uzbekistan) and Persia.

The narrative which he published on his visit to England in 1834 added immensely to contemporary knowledge of these countries, and was one of the most popular books of the time. The first edition earned the author £800, and his services were recognized not only by the Royal Geographical Society of London, but also by that of Paris. He was also elected a Fellow of the Royal Society the same year. [3] Soon after his return to India in 1835 he was appointed to the court of Sindh to secure a treaty for the navigation of the Indus and in 1836 he undertook a political mission to Dost Mahommed Khan at Kabul.

22nd September 2012, 04:30 PM	#1
AJ1356 Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Nashville Posts: 317	Jaques, You don't have to give it to the Salvation Army, You can always send it to me. The text is quite interesting. On the last picture the text is not complete, so a petter picture would help, also any other text that has not been translated take pics of it and I'll take care of it. Here is what we got from now. این شمشیر یادکار سرکار بلند اقتدار میر مراد علی خان تالپر والی ملک سند بجهته عالیجاه جیمس برنس صاحب بجهته اخوی ارجمند الکسندر برنس صاحب بدیدارت سرکار میر مراد علی خان تالپر مدد یا علی علیه السلام So basically this was sort of a gift from one guy to this other guy's brother. Trans { This shamshir is a "gift" (it say a memory from) high powered overseer Mir Murad Ali Khan Taalper Governor of Sindh (which is now the pakistani and indian panjabs) for High placed sir James Burns for his dear brother sir Alexander Burns} "Till we meet" <---- not exact trans but close enough that is why I put it in qoutations. I used lowered case S for Sir, because the person may not have been knighted but the word Saaheb is used in that manner. Overseer Mir Murad Ali Khan Taalper Help O Ali Alaih e Salaam I used overseer because it is the direct translation for the word Sarkaar, but It used to be a title as well mainly from those of high station in government. The guy is the governor, of a what was one of British India major provences. So this could shadder the whole idea of the hilt being a later addition, the hilt and the fittings could have been made at the time the blade was made. Also it shadder the 1600's time frame I offered. Last edited by AJ1356; 22nd September 2012 at 05:05 PM.

22nd September 2012, 04:44 PM	#2
AJ1356 Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Nashville Posts: 317	The Arabic Text from the spine, قاتلوا الذین لا یومنون با لله و لا بالیوم الآخر و لا یحرمون ما حرم الله و رسوله و لا یدینون دین الحق The native Arabs can correct my limited Arabic but here is a try, Kill this that don't believe in God and the Last Day( day of judgement) and don't respect? the Sanctuary of God and his Messenger and ....... the right religion.

22nd September 2012, 04:55 PM	#3
AJ1356 Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Nashville Posts: 317	First picture in the post, تا حیاتت این تیغ نامدار بر میانت از برادر یادگار Till your life this "famous" blade Would remain a memory from (your) brother گر یار در جنگ یزدان بود ----------- چندان بود If God is your friend in Combat hidden behind the hand guard) would be many Get me the pther pictures I asked, there is a mention of Alexamder the Mecedonian and The fountain of Life.

22nd September 2012, 10:53 PM	#4
VANDERNOTTE Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 60	I would like to thank once again everybody for your help and specially AJ1356 for the translations! It gives me a new perspeftive about the blade and its origins. It´s possible that the blade arrived to this side of the world during Independence of Peru. Some french and english were fighting for independence causes, between 1821 and 1824. Jacques

23rd September 2012, 01:30 PM	#5
Richard G Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 409	Just a small correction to AJ1356's post no.17. Sindh is a separate province, south of the Punjab. It's capital is Karachi. It was taken by Sir Charles Napier for the E.I.C. in 1843. The family name of the defeated Amirs of Scinde was Talpeer. Alexander Burnes was an explorer who travelled up the Indus and through the Himalayas to Bukhara and Persia, writing a memoir of his travels. He was appointed by the E.I.C. to Scinde as political agent. He was then sent to Kabul(Afghanistan) to help establish Shah Shuja as a pro British ruler. He was assasinated during an insurrection in 1841 which precipitated the evacuation of the E.I.C. contingent from Kabul. Of 17,000, only 40 managed to get back across the Khyber pass. So, not only a beautiful sword, but also one of historic significance. Regards Richard PS Alexander Burns was apparently none as "Sekundar" Burnes which may explain the refernce to Alexander the Great.

23rd September 2012, 03:22 PM	#6
AJ1356 Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Nashville Posts: 317	Richard, what happened to james Burns then, form the text it seems like the governor knew James Burns not Alexander Burns.

23rd September 2012, 07:13 PM	#7
Richard G Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 409	AJ1356, Dr James Burnes was an elder brother of Alexander Burnes. He was certainly active in Bombay about this time and may well have visited Scinde, He is most famous (?) for being a prominent Freemason and founding the first lodge open to non-europeans in Bombay in 1843. In my opinion this is an old blade valued by the Talpeers and inscribed on their instruction around 1843, and three reasons spring to mind:- 1, They had geniune respect for his brother Alexander. 2, It could have been diplomatically advantageous to keep a British official "onside" in 1842/3. 3, the Masonic connection. It seems unlikely that they would have presented a blade only, but the mounts and scabbard fittings are definitely English from around this time, in the style of a British mameluke hilted General Officers sword (pattern 1831) which also became a popular pattern for diplomatic dress etc. I think this sword, despite it's lack of scabbard, could fetch significant money (in my terms, anyway) on the London art market and is certainly worth further investigation, e.g. is there an important Peruvian connection? Regards Richard PS, You know, looking back at the pictures, I'm not so sure the hilt and fittings are English:- 1, the scabbard fittings look like Bombay or Kutch work if you ignore the armorial, 2, the overall curve of the hilt is not what you would expect from an English maker, 3, the langets look a bit thin and the hilt seems to be seated in a a black lac. Intriguing?