Jezail 3: Return of the Not-Quite-So-Killer Jezail

RDGAC · 17th September 2012, 07:57 PM

Right, maybe a pointless or silly question ahoy.

As I always do, when I got this musket I had a prod down the bore with a long dowel (the ramrod being absent), and theorised that the process of spiking/stopping the barrel up had left a blockage which resulted in the dowel stopping around 1in short of where it probably should, based on the position of the spoked touch-hole/channel hole.

However, further checks have made me more cautious; I now suspect that there may be a charge and/or projectile remaining in the barrel. With that in mind, I wondered if anyone knows roughly how long a fairly typical load for a .50in musket such as this would be, i.e., how much of the bore's volume would it fill? A charge with a "length" of one inch - or, if there's a 0.5in projectile atop it, 0.5in - seems fairly small to me, but I've very little experience to go from. My first jezail (c. 1870, 20 bore/0.6in) was loaded with a charge with a length of around 1.5-1.75in, as I recall; that's about all I have to go on.

David R · 17th September 2012, 11:58 PM

I have pulled rounds out of very junk looking guns before, ( even gas pipe specials from Kurdistan) so the appearance of the thing is no indication as to it's status. For safeties sake I would assume that it is loaded....
Try a ball screw, basicly a wood screw on a long shaft to pull any lead slugs out. Then a worm, rather like a cork screw, to draw the load.
Alternatively try washing it out with lots of water.
The amount of powder used would vary depending on what was available, and what was the intended target! And even 0.5 ins of a load will take the back of your head off at point blank.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 18th September 2012, 06:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RDGAC

Right, maybe a pointless or silly question ahoy.

As I always do, when I got this musket I had a prod down the bore with a long dowel (the ramrod being absent), and theorised that the process of spiking/stopping the barrel up had left a blockage which resulted in the dowel stopping around 1in short of where it probably should, based on the position of the spoked touch-hole/channel hole.

However, further checks have made me more cautious; I now suspect that there may be a charge and/or projectile remaining in the barrel. With that in mind, I wondered if anyone knows roughly how long a fairly typical load for a .50in musket such as this would be, i.e., how much of the bore's volume would it fill? A charge with a "length" of one inch - or, if there's a 0.5in projectile atop it, 0.5in - seems fairly small to me, but I've very little experience to go from. My first jezail (c. 1870, 20 bore/0.6in) was loaded with a charge with a length of around 1.5-1.75in, as I recall; that's about all I have to go on.

Salaams RDGAC ~ As it happens I was having a cup of tea just this morning only 75 yards down the road where there is a little workshop that fixes guns mainly semi modern stuff post 1940ish. The chap on the floor cushion was hammering away at a new butt and stock arrangement and I asked him about guns ( he is Pakistani from Peshawer ) These people on both sides of the border can make reasonable 303 carbines out of a load of scrap and their forefathers made fake Martini Henrys etc. Their work given a modicum of workshop facilities is excellent. He reckons work like your rifle is conducted regularly but more by the junior workers. The big fake marker is the poorly made trigger guard. Any weapon that has an obviously home made trigger guard is likely to be further played with. It is another trick to stick genuine gun parts and copied parts all together to try to pass off the item as original. Often the butt plate is real or even the barrel. Where there is a band of copper or usually brass around the woodwork it is often split...common behind the trigger where the woodwork is thinner. Sometimes the wood splits because too much powder was used. On other occasions the barrel can blow often at the first weld about a foot from the cannon end..dodgy indeed.

As David points out... You have to consider a charge and a projectile are wedged in the barrel.

You are not the first to take on a largely copied job. I've got one which makes yours look absolutely genuine ! A complete pile of junk ... with everything wrong with it.

Perhaps we need a rogues gallery where all the garbage can be safely lodged and people can go there to check on what not to choose and why.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

David R · 18th September 2012, 05:37 PM

I regularly see junk guns at antique and arms fairs, and if they are cheap enough they can be a nice antique gun kit or a source of spares. Think how much work there is in a good barrel...sometimes worth the money for the whole gun.
Last weekend one of these was being sold at the Birmingham arms fair, but honestly labeled as a "decorative wall hanger".
For a laugh though, here's the lock off one of these I bought a couple of years ago for the sake of the decent, though cut down, rifled octagonal barrel. NB the brass tumbler inside the lock, I think the cock is genuine, and perhaps the lock plate.

rickystl · 21st September 2012, 09:59 PM

I really like the fluted barrel on your gun. Beautiful. Too bad about the breech end. Well, if you plan on restoring, it looks like you have your work cut out for you.
By coincidence, I just purchased a Jezail myself. I plan on restoring this one to a shooter. Mine is rather plain and un-decorated, but it's all there. Even the sling is original. I bought this one because it has a genuine British Barnett trade lock. The butt stock is broke where someone crudely glued it together. The glue is still soft.

The trigger guard is broke - and likely the same person tried to glue that back together.

But it's all repairable. I plan on tackeling this project sometime next year. Too many others to finish at the momment.
Keep us posted as to your progress. Thanks, Rick.

RDGAC · 26th November 2013, 11:08 PM

Well, thread necromancy ahoy. I have recently begun work on this again, after a year's hopeless indecision. My eventual call was to make or have made a new fore-end for the stock. Microscopic examination, courtesy the York Archaeological Trust (very nice folks, for anyone in the area), revealed that the newer part of the stock, the "repair", is made from beech. I didn't know beech grew around Afghanistan, but there it is.

The old, original part, however, is made from something else entirely. Namely, a plant I'd never heard of, "Common dogwood", Cornus sanguinea, apparently native to much of Europe and as far afield as the Caspian Sea. That explains roughly where it came from, at any rate, which seems nice to know.

Now for my question: Does anyone know of anywhere I can get some common dogwood timber? Google has turned up, so far, absolutely nothing suitable; the plant itself is mostly used as an ornamental shrub, obviously not really suitable for making gun stocks!

Ricky: That is a very nice gun, if a bit battered. How's she coming along?

Jim McDougall · 29th November 2013, 09:30 PM

I cant add much on the dogwood, but just wanted to say Im glad you're back and than you for staying with it on this.....I really love this jezail! and it has an incredible charm to it, and I can picture the fantastic history of its home regions. I recall the great discussions we had on that EIC balemark and led to outstanding entries in my own notes.

All the best,
Jim

fearn · 30th November 2013, 04:11 AM

Probably the simplest way to get Cornus sanguinea is to go where it lives, hire someone to legally cut the wood, and repair the gun on location. Then it will be genuine. The second choice is to find Cornus sanguinea growing somewhere in England (where it's been planted) and make a bargain to get the wood you need. Perhaps after someone's cleaning up after a storm or before a development goes in? Then you can dry it (or pay someone to do so) and get to work crafting it.

F

17th September 2012, 07:57 PM	#1
RDGAC Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: York, UK Posts: 167	Typical charges Right, maybe a pointless or silly question ahoy. As I always do, when I got this musket I had a prod down the bore with a long dowel (the ramrod being absent), and theorised that the process of spiking/stopping the barrel up had left a blockage which resulted in the dowel stopping around 1in short of where it probably should, based on the position of the spoked touch-hole/channel hole. However, further checks have made me more cautious; I now suspect that there may be a charge and/or projectile remaining in the barrel. With that in mind, I wondered if anyone knows roughly how long a fairly typical load for a .50in musket such as this would be, i.e., how much of the bore's volume would it fill? A charge with a "length" of one inch - or, if there's a 0.5in projectile atop it, 0.5in - seems fairly small to me, but I've very little experience to go from. My first jezail (c. 1870, 20 bore/0.6in) was loaded with a charge with a length of around 1.5-1.75in, as I recall; that's about all I have to go on.

18th September 2012, 05:37 PM	#4
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,114	I regularly see junk guns at antique and arms fairs, and if they are cheap enough they can be a nice antique gun kit or a source of spares. Think how much work there is in a good barrel...sometimes worth the money for the whole gun. Last weekend one of these was being sold at the Birmingham arms fair, but honestly labeled as a "decorative wall hanger". For a laugh though, here's the lock off one of these I bought a couple of years ago for the sake of the decent, though cut down, rifled octagonal barrel. NB the brass tumbler inside the lock, I think the cock is genuine, and perhaps the lock plate. Attached Images

21st September 2012, 09:59 PM	#5
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,629	I really like the fluted barrel on your gun. Beautiful. Too bad about the breech end. Well, if you plan on restoring, it looks like you have your work cut out for you. By coincidence, I just purchased a Jezail myself. I plan on restoring this one to a shooter. Mine is rather plain and un-decorated, but it's all there. Even the sling is original. I bought this one because it has a genuine British Barnett trade lock. The butt stock is broke where someone crudely glued it together. The glue is still soft. The trigger guard is broke - and likely the same person tried to glue that back together. But it's all repairable. I plan on tackeling this project sometime next year. Too many others to finish at the momment. Keep us posted as to your progress. Thanks, Rick. Attached Images

17th September 2012, 11:58 PM	#2
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,114	I have pulled rounds out of very junk looking guns before, ( even gas pipe specials from Kurdistan) so the appearance of the thing is no indication as to it's status. For safeties sake I would assume that it is loaded.... Try a ball screw, basicly a wood screw on a long shaft to pull any lead slugs out. Then a worm, rather like a cork screw, to draw the load. Alternatively try washing it out with lots of water. The amount of powder used would vary depending on what was available, and what was the intended target! And even 0.5 ins of a load will take the back of your head off at point blank.

26th November 2013, 11:08 PM	#6
RDGAC Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: York, UK Posts: 167	Well, thread necromancy ahoy. I have recently begun work on this again, after a year's hopeless indecision. My eventual call was to make or have made a new fore-end for the stock. Microscopic examination, courtesy the York Archaeological Trust (very nice folks, for anyone in the area), revealed that the newer part of the stock, the "repair", is made from beech. I didn't know beech grew around Afghanistan, but there it is. The old, original part, however, is made from something else entirely. Namely, a plant I'd never heard of, "Common dogwood", Cornus sanguinea, apparently native to much of Europe and as far afield as the Caspian Sea. That explains roughly where it came from, at any rate, which seems nice to know. Now for my question: Does anyone know of anywhere I can get some common dogwood timber? Google has turned up, so far, absolutely nothing suitable; the plant itself is mostly used as an ornamental shrub, obviously not really suitable for making gun stocks! Ricky: That is a very nice gun, if a bit battered. How's she coming along?

29th November 2013, 09:30 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	I cant add much on the dogwood, but just wanted to say Im glad you're back and than you for staying with it on this.....I really love this jezail! and it has an incredible charm to it, and I can picture the fantastic history of its home regions. I recall the great discussions we had on that EIC balemark and led to outstanding entries in my own notes. All the best, Jim

30th November 2013, 04:11 AM	#8
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Probably the simplest way to get Cornus sanguinea is to go where it lives, hire someone to legally cut the wood, and repair the gun on location. Then it will be genuine. The second choice is to find Cornus sanguinea growing somewhere in England (where it's been planted) and make a bargain to get the wood you need. Perhaps after someone's cleaning up after a storm or before a development goes in? Then you can dry it (or pay someone to do so) and get to work crafting it. F