Armour?

Ahriman · 13th September 2005, 09:33 PM

My fault again... I meant metacarpal plate. I know about the mittens, but that'd be far from enough... especially if there's the possibility of meeting a hammer, a club, an axe... Not to mention a two-hander sword.

With them being small, I meant that even MY arm has a wrist/thickest part circumference ratio of 18/42, which is quite far from these vambraces. They don't widen enough for a muscular arm, which would be normal for an archer-swordsman. The last one you posted is getting closer if I see it correctly, but MOST of these are... small, and it's strange to me. If you still can't understand my rambling, learn hungarian so I can explain it in my mother language...

About the zertsalo-krug thing, I thought the same, but thoughts like this often cause me trouble... For example I don't understand why would a Berserk*-ish armour impossible in the 16th century, Germany. Grotesque, fluted, working. Then...?
* I mean the manga, not the viking bastard.

Ahriman · 13th September 2005, 09:42 PM

Forgot to add. Thanks for the pictures... where are they from? I mean, the photos, not the pieces. Are these yours? If so, you're far luckier than me...

I'm planning to visit ANY of these museums since... well, since I was 8. That was long ago.
For the char-ai-na set, I'd bet late period. The links are very small, and unless it's a masterpiece, it's impossible to be rivetted. You see, there's little to no uneveness in the aventail, while a rivet or the widened rivet base would cause such effect. It's too smooth. BUT if it's rivetted, I'm going to visit it even if I had to walk there. That'd mean EXTREMELY fine work. Hm, but then, it'd be the suit of a VERY wealthy person...
Thanks for the Sind armour... I've seen only 2 pictures of them before this. Could you please give me more info about them? Or at least point me to the good direction?

And a last thing: is there a picture showing close-up on the repousse work of the full krug armour down there? It seems beautiful... But it's a rather small picture.

Thanks!

Ahriman · 13th September 2005, 09:54 PM

Just now, in an email, I've received a link, where I've found this picture.

Now, I think that #5 and #11 is too familiar. It seems to me that they could be theoretically joined with the #3 down on this page, which Aqtai posted. I know that neither of the show signs of connection, but the familiar design is strange to me. COULD have been there a connection between India and Japan? More precisely, is it possible that the Japans had acces to Indian stuff? Because, if so, we'd have a clear link. (at least, I think) And it'd result in a plate mitten, with plate wirst lame, and mail connection between the wirst, metacarpal, and vambrace plates.
I do know it's a crazy theory, but what do you think?

Aqtai · 14th September 2005, 08:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ahriman

Forgot to add. Thanks for the pictures... where are they from? I mean, the photos, not the pieces. Are these yours? If so, you're far luckier than me...

I'm planning to visit ANY of these museums since... well, since I was 8. That was long ago.
For the char-ai-na set, I'd bet late period. The links are very small, and unless it's a masterpiece, it's impossible to be rivetted. You see, there's little to no uneveness in the aventail, while a rivet or the widened rivet base would cause such effect. It's too smooth. BUT if it's rivetted, I'm going to visit it even if I had to walk there. That'd mean EXTREMELY fine work. Hm, but then, it'd be the suit of a VERY wealthy person...
Thanks for the Sind armour... I've seen only 2 pictures of them before this. Could you please give me more info about them? Or at least point me to the good direction?

And a last thing: is there a picture showing close-up on the repousse work of the full krug armour down there? It seems beautiful... But it's a rather small picture.

Thanks!

The photos were all taken by myself a few months ago at the Royal Armouries Museum in Leeds, it is the closest Museum to where I live and as far as I know one of the last remaining big public collections of of Oriental armour in England that is still open. The V&A closed their main arms and armour collection and the only the few pieces remaining in the South Asia section can now be seen by the public. The Wallace Collection is also open, but exhibits mainly later Indian and Iranian armour, it has no Turkish stuff and doesn't allow photography. I'm afraid I wasn't particularly interested in the damaged krug at the time as there was an intact krug next to it. So that's the biggest photo i have of it.

I've placed a lot of my Royal Armoury photos on the User-submitted photos section of the myarmoury.com website.
http://www.myarmoury.com/albums/thum...lbum=50&page=1

Ahriman · 14th September 2005, 08:53 AM

Sorry, I meant that picture from the book... I can see the damaged one's repousse well enough.

That's sad... but less sad than our country... one of our museums has about 50 japanase weapons... displays 0... has more than 100 katars... displays 0... has late-period japanase full armours... display 0... I'm VERY mad at them.

Aqtai · 14th September 2005, 02:58 PM

OK I understand, I'm afraid I don't have a more detailed picture, it was scanned from G. C. Stones' "Glossary...", which is why the quality isn't great. All I can do is link you to a slightly bigger scan:
http://img384.imageshack.us/img384/9...anstone0ep.jpg

About those Japanese laminated gauntlets, I have seen Turkish and Iranian armours with laminated vambraces that extended down to the knuckles. Unfortunately the only picture I have of one these, is a rather poor quality picture from Robinson's "Oriental Armour" of a 15th century Turkish armour, now in the Metropolitan Museum in New York.

It has to be said though these laminated vambraces look suspiciously like greaves. I saw this armour in the Met about four years ago, it has now been placed on an equestrian figure, and the vambraces are no longer there.

A reconstruction of this armour is also on the front cover of an Osprey Men-At-Arms book:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/reader/08...=1#reader-page

Ahriman · 14th September 2005, 05:26 PM

Damn, I was looking for this suit for ages!

Yes, I see that most of these pictures are from books...

I don't think that it'd be greave... where'd you put that "metacarpal"-like plate? It's shaped rather oddly for a sabaton... and it's too short. If the author'd've mentioned something about this...

BTW, I found an interesting vambrace at rubens.anu.edu.au. It has that widening I missed before, and is quite like the one on the met suit, only that it's shorter. But if we take into consideration that it's made from 3 plates which couldn't compress, while the met one in made from stripes... Hm. And it's too high for a greave, and if I'm correct, the turkish armour fashion used m&p cuisses with mail demi-greaves, which'd cover about the third or half of the greave. So such a high greave would be a waste of metal and would needlessly increase the weight.
There's a quite simple way to get proof... I'm in need for a full eastern harness... so I think, as I have the picture of it now, I'll build THIS for myself at last. If the vambrace works, good, if not... then we're looking for very-very long legs...

13th September 2005, 09:33 PM	#1
Ahriman Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Hungary Posts: 72	My fault again... I meant metacarpal plate. I know about the mittens, but that'd be far from enough... especially if there's the possibility of meeting a hammer, a club, an axe... Not to mention a two-hander sword. With them being small, I meant that even MY arm has a wrist/thickest part circumference ratio of 18/42, which is quite far from these vambraces. They don't widen enough for a muscular arm, which would be normal for an archer-swordsman. The last one you posted is getting closer if I see it correctly, but MOST of these are... small, and it's strange to me. If you still can't understand my rambling, learn hungarian so I can explain it in my mother language... About the zertsalo-krug thing, I thought the same, but thoughts like this often cause me trouble... For example I don't understand why would a Berserk-ish armour impossible in the 16th century, Germany. Grotesque, fluted, working. Then...? I mean the manga, not the viking bastard.

13th September 2005, 09:42 PM	#2
Ahriman Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Hungary Posts: 72	Forgot to add. Thanks for the pictures... where are they from? I mean, the photos, not the pieces. Are these yours? If so, you're far luckier than me... I'm planning to visit ANY of these museums since... well, since I was 8. That was long ago. For the char-ai-na set, I'd bet late period. The links are very small, and unless it's a masterpiece, it's impossible to be rivetted. You see, there's little to no uneveness in the aventail, while a rivet or the widened rivet base would cause such effect. It's too smooth. BUT if it's rivetted, I'm going to visit it even if I had to walk there. That'd mean EXTREMELY fine work. Hm, but then, it'd be the suit of a VERY wealthy person... Thanks for the Sind armour... I've seen only 2 pictures of them before this. Could you please give me more info about them? Or at least point me to the good direction? And a last thing: is there a picture showing close-up on the repousse work of the full krug armour down there? It seems beautiful... But it's a rather small picture. Thanks!

13th September 2005, 09:54 PM	#3
Ahriman Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Hungary Posts: 72	Just now, in an email, I've received a link, where I've found this picture. Now, I think that #5 and #11 is too familiar. It seems to me that they could be theoretically joined with the #3 down on this page, which Aqtai posted. I know that neither of the show signs of connection, but the familiar design is strange to me. COULD have been there a connection between India and Japan? More precisely, is it possible that the Japans had acces to Indian stuff? Because, if so, we'd have a clear link. (at least, I think) And it'd result in a plate mitten, with plate wirst lame, and mail connection between the wirst, metacarpal, and vambrace plates. I do know it's a crazy theory, but what do you think?

14th September 2005, 08:53 AM	#5
Ahriman Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Hungary Posts: 72	Sorry, I meant that picture from the book... I can see the damaged one's repousse well enough. That's sad... but less sad than our country... one of our museums has about 50 japanase weapons... displays 0... has more than 100 katars... displays 0... has late-period japanase full armours... display 0... I'm VERY mad at them.

14th September 2005, 02:58 PM	#6
Aqtai Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Merseyside, UK Posts: 222	OK I understand, I'm afraid I don't have a more detailed picture, it was scanned from G. C. Stones' "Glossary...", which is why the quality isn't great. All I can do is link you to a slightly bigger scan: http://img384.imageshack.us/img384/9...anstone0ep.jpg About those Japanese laminated gauntlets, I have seen Turkish and Iranian armours with laminated vambraces that extended down to the knuckles. Unfortunately the only picture I have of one these, is a rather poor quality picture from Robinson's "Oriental Armour" of a 15th century Turkish armour, now in the Metropolitan Museum in New York. It has to be said though these laminated vambraces look suspiciously like greaves. I saw this armour in the Met about four years ago, it has now been placed on an equestrian figure, and the vambraces are no longer there. A reconstruction of this armour is also on the front cover of an Osprey Men-At-Arms book: http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/reader/08...=1#reader-page

14th September 2005, 05:26 PM	#7
Ahriman Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Hungary Posts: 72	Damn, I was looking for this suit for ages! Yes, I see that most of these pictures are from books... I don't think that it'd be greave... where'd you put that "metacarpal"-like plate? It's shaped rather oddly for a sabaton... and it's too short. If the author'd've mentioned something about this... BTW, I found an interesting vambrace at rubens.anu.edu.au. It has that widening I missed before, and is quite like the one on the met suit, only that it's shorter. But if we take into consideration that it's made from 3 plates which couldn't compress, while the met one in made from stripes... Hm. And it's too high for a greave, and if I'm correct, the turkish armour fashion used m&p cuisses with mail demi-greaves, which'd cover about the third or half of the greave. So such a high greave would be a waste of metal and would needlessly increase the weight. There's a quite simple way to get proof... I'm in need for a full eastern harness... so I think, as I have the picture of it now, I'll build THIS for myself at last. If the vambrace works, good, if not... then we're looking for very-very long legs...