Too Tiny?

[David]

Originally Posted by Battara

Other possibility: it is an early form. Not sure, but smaller forms with out lots of lamination were indicative of earlier forms.

I think we all wish there was more info on these blades.
From the more bulbous pommel form it would seem it is not an "older" form. The metal work looks fairly nice, but i would still be interested in knowing if it is silver or some other white metal.
...and that would be a yes AFAIK Andrew....betel nut does indeed have a history of use in the Philippines.

[Indianajones]

Will give it my 'go'; not a bad buy would my humble opinion be. The pommel does look like ivory (think too thick mass to be bone) and so white because its 'bleached' by sun n age (and not being handled much). Am wondering what kind of ivory.

Blade may indeed be bit on the simple side, but one cant have it all on one piece, can we?! To my opinion not specifically an early piece as than they would not have used so much silver/metalwork on the sheath (the more early, the rarer metal/silver).
<for betelnut one rather need a more hacking sort of blade as these nuts are hard to crack. Dagger has little use with them>

All in all a nice honest little gunong with a ivory pommel. Sometimes small can also be a plus! Congratulations I would say!
Buy two more and you'l have a collection of them . . .

[A.alnakkas]

Thanks all! am really glad that my first Moro purchase is not that bad hehe

[T. Koch]

It could indeed be dirty ivory, but the grey-ish areas of the hilt suggest bone to me. These areas would be some of the outer grain of the spongiose core tissue. Ivory is much more solid and usually whiter and the material has a more 'live' glow. Hard to explain, but a focused picture of the handle surface should be able to decide it.

Very cool little knife in all regards. I've never personally seen a gunong in hand, so I am also surprised by the size. I like it even better now that I know that it is so small - such a great little stabber!

Thanks for sharing!


Best wishes, - Thor

[A.alnakkas]

Hey guys!

Here are zooms on the hilt. Going to etch the blade whenever am free.

The fittings seem to be silver but cant be sure.

[David]

I looks like it might be Tridacna (giant clam shell).
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ght=clam+shell

[A.alnakkas]

Originally Posted by David

I looks like it might be Tridacna (giant clam shell).
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ght=clam+shell

Hey David,

Hilt is abit transclucent.

Does transclucency mean anything?

[Battara]

Originally Posted by David

From the more bulbous pommel form it would seem it is not an "older" form.

I forgot about that - very good point. I agree that this is a big indication of being a circa 1930s piece.

Also the more I look at this the more I am inclined to agree that this may be clam shell.

[T. Koch]

My vote still goes for bone, although I guess, it theoretically could be from the outer layers of the clamshell, where the material is more mottled and of lesser quality. In my experience though, craftsmen usually take from nearer the center, where the shell is harder and more compact.
An example would be these Japanese Go-stones, also carved from some unknown Tridacna-species:



- and yes, I am aware that these pictured, are expensive über high-end stones, but they serve to illustrate that purity is an ideal when it comes to worked clamshell.

Rick's suggestion is good IMO. If the handle feels hard, cold and stone-like to the touch, it's probably Tridacna-shell. If you could carefully burn some unexposed part of the hilt, you would quickly be able to determine whether the material is organic or mineral.

*Wouter* I agree with you, but I'm sceptical about the source being caribou though. Unless of course you're referring to the epic 18th century Moro-raid on Santa's Sleigh? It was a massacre... Antler, red noses and little elf limbs everywhere...
Don't you think it's more likely to be from sambar deer or something likewise more local?


Best wishes, - Thor

[Robert]

Thor, I believe that Wouter is referring to carabao/water buffalo bone not caribou though an 18th century Moro-raid on Santa's Sleigh could have produced some unique hilt materials.

Robert

[Sajen]

Look indeed like Tridacna but like Wouter write is the hairline crack is a little bit unusual but could be possible. Like Rick write it is a good test to test the hardness of the material additional have Tridacna a cold feel while bone have a more warm feel like ivory. BTW, nice little gunong.

Regards,

Detlef

[A.alnakkas]

Hey guys thanks!

Well I dont know how stone feels if I would touch it with my teeth, not exactly something I do usually lol and kinda frightened from putting an item held by probably lots of people in my mouth:P

Though the temprature test is more viable, especially today since my AC broken (just fixed it, hoorai!) so room was pretty hot. Surprisingly the item was cold to touch while my other items next to it (all had wooden hilts) were room temprature hot.

Lotfy

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

Hey guys thanks!

Well I dont know how stone feels if I would touch it with my teeth, not exactly something I do usually lol and kinda frightened from putting an item held by probably lots of people in my mouth:P

Though the temprature test is more viable, especially today since my AC broken (just fixed it, hoorai!) so room was pretty hot. Surprisingly the item was cold to touch while my other items next to it (all had wooden hilts) were room temprature hot.

Lotfy

Hi mate,

when it feel cold by touch it is most probable Tridacna, the cold feel is typical. Rare material, concrats!

BTW, I am green with envy about the temperature at your home, here in Germany it becomes cold!

Regards,

Detlef

[David]

Originally Posted by T. Koch

My vote still goes for bone, although I guess, it theoretically could be from the outer layers of the clamshell, where the material is more mottled and of lesser quality. In my experience though, craftsmen usually take from nearer the center, where the shell is harder and more compact.

Thor, did you look at the examples of Tridacna hilts that i linked to above. While the purity of the material might be of more importance in, say, the Japanese culture, it should certainly be clear from the examples in the thread that i posted that it is not that much of an issue in the Malay world.

[T. Koch]

*David* Thank you for drawing my attention to your link - again. I had indeed missed it the first time around. I see now, that the mottled parts of the shell are indeed being used - at least when we're talking keris hilts. I just find this peculiar. I have myself manually destroyed dozens of Tridacna-shells and even fairly small half-shells, say the size of your average popcorn bowl have maybe 6-7 cm thick shells. Especially the area near the umbo (hinge) of the clam, is comprised of plenty of dense, white material.

Atm. I tend to agree with Wouter: I'm still indecisive, but after seing the phtographs Rick linked to, I'm leaning more towards clam than bone. It's not however TOK-TOK. Bone against glass goes PLOK-PLOK, while clamshell against glass goes KLINK-KLINK. The problem with onomatopoeia is the same as with the hot/cold-distinction: They're both very subjective..

I still say torch it - it's the only way to know for sure! If dissassembly is not an option, I guess comparing it with the sound of a stone against glass, is the next-best thing: They should sound about the same: both harder than bone.

- Very cool discussion. I'm very grateful to have learned this and seen the above photos. Thanks everybody!


All the best, - Thor

[A.alnakkas]

Hey Thor,

The best way to describe the voice I heard is that its similar to tapping 2 pieces of glass. There is a ring to it like a bell.

[kai]

Hello Thor,

I have myself manually destroyed dozens of Tridacna-shells

Aren't these auctioned off for the good cause?

even fairly small half-shells, say the size of your average popcorn bowl have maybe 6-7 cm thick shells. Especially the area near the umbo (hinge) of the clam, is comprised of plenty of dense, white material.

I have wondered about this, too. While the large specimens may have been quite difficult to obtain, this may be more a matter of priorities for utilizing/trading the best pieces.

I still say torch it - it's the only way to know for sure!

Is the smell really that different? (dense bone, tooth, and clam all retaining some amount of organic material)

If you have a good magnifying glass, you should be able to tell from the microstructure, especially with polished surfaces: clam does exhibit tiny, undulated growing rings which seem to be quite distinctive in the few examples I've closely examined.

If dissassembly is not an option, I guess comparing it with the sound of a stone against glass, is the next-best thing: They should sound about the same: both harder than bone.

With either sound or touch, I agree that it would be good to utilize suitable pieces for comparision: polished marble vs. bone and ivory. Having said that, the difference in weight is pretty obvious if you're used to objects of similar size.

Regards,
Kai

[Ferguson]

These really small gunong are not uncommon. I have a couple. Here's my smallest. Yours looks nice.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t=small+gunong

Steve

[T. Koch]

Originally Posted by kai

Hello Thor,


Aren't these auctioned off for the good cause?

Yes, that is indeed the approach of the CITES Management Authority (M.A.) of many countries. The legislation as such allows for the M.A. to auction off confiscated effects from species listed on CITES Appendix II/EU Annex B or lower. Personally, I think this is a great approach and I would love the possibility of making my own department at least partly self-sustaining like that.

However, from the Ministry administration (under which the Danish M.A. belongs) there is a wish as to "not to send confusing signals to the population". You see, here in Europe our governments do all the thinking for us, and of course the common citizen simply wouldn't be able to grasp the good intentions behind such an auction or the benefits it could potentially bring... (and I use this smiley very sparingly)

So no, unfortunately no auctions here. Confiscated effects that are in some way unique, educational or may serve as a taxonomical reference are stored for the purpose of lending out to schools, museums or as a later reference for ourselves and then we whack the crap out of the rest.

The educational part I'm really all for and I'm also happy that we in that regard have around 15 large metal trunks filled with different confiscated effects and each accompanied by an educational pack consisting of books and DVD's. These trunks are continuously lent out to public schools in the country and I think this is very valuable from a conservationist point of view. -You've gotta catch 'em while they're young!


All the best, - Thor


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Dear mods, I'm sorry for going so very much off topic here and I realize that I could have written kai a pm instead. However, I thought it might be of interest to others too, to hear how we do in at least one country. If you mods feel like it, you are more than welcome to delete this post. No hard feelings from here at all!