Information Please about Ivory Ceremonial Staff and Hatchet

naborow · 2nd September 2012, 10:51 PM

I'm confused. were they actually used in processions, in the temple, or just souvenirs? With the little temple on the Zaghnal, it is i assume hindu. Who might have carried it in a procession? I found one identical to the staff sold a few years ago at Sotheby's in London for a considerable sum. Only identifiers were Indian 19th C.

VANDOO · 3rd September 2012, 06:32 AM

I HAVE SEEN EXAMPLES OF THIS INDIAN FORM OF BATTLE AX /HAMMER TYPE WEAPON SUITABLE FOR BATTLE AND OTHERS LIKE THIS EXAMPLE MORE SUITED TO PROCESSIONAL USE.
I HAVE A FEW QUESTIONS
1. ARE THEY PRESENT IN INDIAN ARSENALS IN LARGE NUMBERS OR VERY UNCOMMON?
2. WERE THEY ONLY CARRIED BY PERSONS OF RANK OR WEALTH.?
3. THE HEAD CAN BE REMOUNTED EASILY SO A SHAFT SUITABLE FOR ACTUAL BATTLE USE COULD BE ADDED OR REMOVED IN MANY EXAMPLES.
4. THERE SHOULD BE MORE SIMPLE FORMS OF HEAD IF THEY WERE USED IN BATTLE BY LARGER NUMBERS OF TROOPS HAS ANYONE SEEN PLAIN EXAMPLES WITH STEEL SHAFTS PERMANENTLY ATTACHED?
5.OFTEN THE FANCY ONES HAVE A HIDDEN SPIKE DAGGER IN THE BASE OF THE HANDLE SIMULAR TO WHAT IS SOMETIMES FOUND IN THE HANDLE OF A ANKUS. COULD THE ZAGHNAL HAVE ANY SPECIFIC USE ON ELEPHANTS IN WAR OR USE IN PROCESSIONS. ?

WE HAVE HEARD STORIES OF THE MAUHT KILLING AN ELEPHANT WHEN IT WAS OUT OF CONTROL WITH THE SPIKE IN THE ANKUS HANDLE OR WITH A KATAR PERHAPS A HEAVY ARMOR PIERCING BLADE SUCH AS THE ZAGHINAL HAS COULD SERVE THE SAME PURPOSE BETTER THAN EITHER OF THE OTHER TWO? IT COULD ALSO SERVE AS AN ANKUS FOR WELL TRAINED ANIMALS IN PROCESSIONS AND PARADES.

WITH LUCK PERHAPS WE WILL HAVE SOMEONE WITH GOOD INFORMATION AND REFRENCES ON SUCH A UNUSUAL AND OFTEN ELABORATE ITEM AND ITS USES. ANY COMMENTS OR INFORMATION WELCOME.

laEspadaAncha · 3rd September 2012, 06:27 PM

A little late in the game with this observation and a little OT, but in all fairness to the Manchester Museum, the quote from some journalist's online article appears as just that - a quote from a journalist.

In the absence of a direct attribution to an official representative of the museum, i.e., the absence of quotations to denote this was told to a journalist verbatim as it appears in the article, I would suggest all they are guilty of is allowing the inaccuracy to go unaddressed, as in turn they are receiving some additional publicitiy - a welcomed gift in this day and age of tightened purse strings.

And of course, curators do get things wrong from time to time, though as a general rule and in the absence of verifiable error* I tend to defer to their knowledge base and depth of archival references, often incorporating their attributions into my own reference library.

As a final note, I personally am thankful for the fallibility of 'experts,' as on more than one occasion, their error has been to my benefit!

*That mirror-finished chrome kukri is obviously one such exception...

2nd September 2012, 10:51 PM	#1
naborow Member Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 11	I'm confused. were they actually used in processions, in the temple, or just souvenirs? With the little temple on the Zaghnal, it is i assume hindu. Who might have carried it in a procession? I found one identical to the staff sold a few years ago at Sotheby's in London for a considerable sum. Only identifiers were Indian 19th C.

3rd September 2012, 06:32 AM	#2
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	I HAVE SEEN EXAMPLES OF THIS INDIAN FORM OF BATTLE AX /HAMMER TYPE WEAPON SUITABLE FOR BATTLE AND OTHERS LIKE THIS EXAMPLE MORE SUITED TO PROCESSIONAL USE. I HAVE A FEW QUESTIONS 1. ARE THEY PRESENT IN INDIAN ARSENALS IN LARGE NUMBERS OR VERY UNCOMMON? 2. WERE THEY ONLY CARRIED BY PERSONS OF RANK OR WEALTH.? 3. THE HEAD CAN BE REMOUNTED EASILY SO A SHAFT SUITABLE FOR ACTUAL BATTLE USE COULD BE ADDED OR REMOVED IN MANY EXAMPLES. 4. THERE SHOULD BE MORE SIMPLE FORMS OF HEAD IF THEY WERE USED IN BATTLE BY LARGER NUMBERS OF TROOPS HAS ANYONE SEEN PLAIN EXAMPLES WITH STEEL SHAFTS PERMANENTLY ATTACHED? 5.OFTEN THE FANCY ONES HAVE A HIDDEN SPIKE DAGGER IN THE BASE OF THE HANDLE SIMULAR TO WHAT IS SOMETIMES FOUND IN THE HANDLE OF A ANKUS. COULD THE ZAGHNAL HAVE ANY SPECIFIC USE ON ELEPHANTS IN WAR OR USE IN PROCESSIONS. ? WE HAVE HEARD STORIES OF THE MAUHT KILLING AN ELEPHANT WHEN IT WAS OUT OF CONTROL WITH THE SPIKE IN THE ANKUS HANDLE OR WITH A KATAR PERHAPS A HEAVY ARMOR PIERCING BLADE SUCH AS THE ZAGHINAL HAS COULD SERVE THE SAME PURPOSE BETTER THAN EITHER OF THE OTHER TWO? IT COULD ALSO SERVE AS AN ANKUS FOR WELL TRAINED ANIMALS IN PROCESSIONS AND PARADES. WITH LUCK PERHAPS WE WILL HAVE SOMEONE WITH GOOD INFORMATION AND REFRENCES ON SUCH A UNUSUAL AND OFTEN ELABORATE ITEM AND ITS USES. ANY COMMENTS OR INFORMATION WELCOME.

3rd September 2012, 06:27 PM	#3
laEspadaAncha Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 608	A little late in the game with this observation and a little OT, but in all fairness to the Manchester Museum, the quote from some journalist's online article appears as just that - a quote from a journalist. In the absence of a direct attribution to an official representative of the museum, i.e., the absence of quotations to denote this was told to a journalist verbatim as it appears in the article, I would suggest all they are guilty of is allowing the inaccuracy to go unaddressed, as in turn they are receiving some additional publicitiy - a welcomed gift in this day and age of tightened purse strings. And of course, curators do get things wrong from time to time, though as a general rule and in the absence of verifiable error* I tend to defer to their knowledge base and depth of archival references, often incorporating their attributions into my own reference library. As a final note, I personally am thankful for the fallibility of 'experts,' as on more than one occasion, their error has been to my benefit! *That mirror-finished chrome kukri is obviously one such exception...