Saif for comment

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Thank you so much for posting the Buttin page Ibrahiim! As I recall I once obtained one of these 'Zanzibar' type sa'if from a grouping which came out of Yemen. It seems that the traffic of arms mounted with trade blades in Zanzibar supplied Yemen as well as of course Oman in some degree as they returned. I am naturally not as well informed on the actual forms or distribution of these weapons to and from Oman, but the presence of the Omani sa'if does appear to have followed trade routes into North Africa. I still believe that these swords deeply influenced the Manding sabres of Mali, as Timbouctou was not only a key trade center but Islamic cultural center of profound importance.

It seems likely if not established that Italian blades had continued coming into North Africa in varying degree from earlier times, and became even more prevalent in the latter 19th century as colonization increased. It is often difficult to determine as Solingen producers spuriously applied so many established maker and guild type markings from Italy. Actually, many schiavona blades were indeed Solingen produced with such markings.

It is most interesting to see the hilt quillon systems on many of these 16th century Italian swords, particularly the storta, and the remarkable similarity to the 'nimcha' saif and the kastane. It seems the earliest known example of the kastane in the familiar hilt form was 1622, from a Japanese diplomatic mission which stopped in Ceylon and returned to Tokyo that year. This would suggest of course that the late 16th century Italian swords had established thier influence in those early decades. There are portraits of English merchants trading in Morocco wearing the familiar 'nimcha' hilts c. 1640s so the influence had been established there presumably in roughly the same period.

Ibrahiim I really appreciate the way you keep discussions going and extend well thought through ideas and suggestions which promote serious evaluations of material and evidence. I very much like your tenacity in ongoing research as clearly shown in your outstanding note regarding items penciled in for further look....as we always say..more research to be done!!!

All the best,
Jim

Salaams Jim~ Thank you for your input much of which I note.

Regarding the Zanzibar influence into Yemen, however,my question of which way round the influence was applied is still up for discussion. I am not as yet convinced that Zanzibar was the producer of Nimcha but that a large hand was applied possibly from Hadramaut and Hyderabad. It may never be discovered. Maybe they all had a hand in it !

In terms of Omani Saif.. "The straight flexible dancing sword" ... I question the influence upon African swords since it is my belief that the Omani dancing sword only appeared late in proceedings about 1800 or thereabouts.

Frankly I could argue more clearly the other way around if I was asked to say what sword in the region inspired Oman to go for a non battle flexible dancing sword in about 1800. Was this a sword that appeared with the new dynasty ~ The Al Busaidi Dynastic Sword...?? Pageants Only.
Ahmad bin Said Al Busaidi founded that Dynasty in 1744. I must add here, however, that I believe the sword that actually inspired the dancing sayf was the old Omani Battle Sword Sayf Yamaani to which I have compared it on the thread Kattara for comments.. please see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10455 at # 312.

The sword that certainly went to that part of Africa as a badge of office with traders and slavers was the Omani Kattara ~the long curved single edge weapon which though mounted on the long Omani conical hilt is a very different proposition to the dancing blade. Omani dancing blades were, however, used in Zanzibari and other Omani outposts in the role of pageantry as they were designed solely for this.(exclusively for Omani nationals only) The other swords that went to the outposts were Nimcha and of course the Omani battle sword affectionately known as Sayf Yamaani.... and a few dignatorial weapons like the odd royal hilted styles (post 1840) and some Persian variants (Shamshir). However, I see no reflection in the Mandingo of the Omani dancing Sayf.

Regarding the Moroccan Nimchas ~ I read somewhere (Perhaps in Anthony Norths book) that swords carried by the trained bands of London, Officers, were derived from that region..? Where I get somewhat confused is that it seems the Moroccan Nimcha was a design taken from the Jinetta of Spain whereas the Italian weapon ~ stortas ~ appear to be the commanding influence on Red Sea Nimchas.

I am not at all clear as to why the Moroccan weapon didn't export via Timbuktu and thus across Africa by trade route to the Zanzibar hub and the Red Sea? It may be another case of two regions both Italy and Morocco influencing these weapons at roughly the same time ~ though as you point out Kastane are much earlier...and Arab by influence..since the Sri Lankan merchant class who introduced them appear to be Arabs. That would mean the Nimcha was in the Red sea/ Zanzibar far earlier than supposed.(thinking aloud here as I dont believe that ~ as there is no proof and no actual early weapons to go by...yet) Of course that also begs the question (pulling my hair out !) what influence is there on the Nimcha (or some of them) of the Red Sea from Sri Lanka? My paragraph does not aproach the vast influence and supply throughout Africa from the blades of Germany ~ I dont know if there was a sword hilt on an earlier blade which we would recognise as Nimcha...in other words what was the date of the appearance of Nimchas in The Red Sea region?

More furious scribbled notes in the margin for me! well put by your last line above.

For an absorbing discussion please see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=kastane

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.