Armour?

rasdan · 12th September 2005, 04:03 AM

Ic, thanks Shah

Hi Ahriman,

Love your work on the plates. Finishing the armour would give more or less same muscle built as the one on the plates.

Ahriman · 13th September 2005, 04:06 PM

Thanks!

(((Then buy some

)))
Nice pictures, thanks again! I know that most of you are familiar with these... but I couldn't find them earlier... And it's a good thing to have them in one place, isn't it? (((This means: post even more!!!

)))
I was thinking. Would it be possible to make a modified krug? I mean, I like it, I have made one already, but I'd prefer a smaller disc, and a bit higher, so it could cover the solar plexus. Um, it'd look almost like a zertsalo, just with m&p construction. So, full circle: would it be "authentic"? (If it was hard to understand, I can post a drawing.)

Vambraces: nice, but I still lack the full metacarpal. Is it because it's my modern idiotism, or it was rare, or what..?

Arm sizes: it'd be OK if it would be to scale. I mean, hand smaller, arms smaller, ok, but the proportions are still not ok. My wrist circumference is 18cm, and my lower arm circumference at the thickest is more than 42cm. Now, I wasn't training for a long time, I'm not a regular archer, I prefer two-handed weapons, and still... I simply can't believe that a full-time warrior can have such a tiny arm. Even the most flaring vambrace on the pics have about 1/1.5=1,666 wrist/thick area ratio, while 42/18=2,333, and it's AFTER the non-training period.

One thing occured to me though: isn't it possible that these were the possessions of the upper classes, and were mostly decorative? I mean, if it has silver on it, repousse, etc, it's not likely that it's owner was a full-time fighter, who don't care much for politics. Or am I, again, and idiot?

Aqtai · 13th September 2005, 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ahriman

...I was thinking. Would it be possible to make a modified krug? I mean, I like it, I have made one already, but I'd prefer a smaller disc, and a bit higher, so it could cover the solar plexus. Um, it'd look almost like a zertsalo, just with m&p construction. So, full circle: would it be "authentic"? (If it was hard to understand, I can post a drawing.)

Vambraces: nice, but I still lack the full metacarpal. Is it because it's my modern idiotism, or it was rare, or what..?

Arm sizes: it'd be OK if it would be to scale. I mean, hand smaller, arms smaller, ok, but the proportions are still not ok. My wrist circumference is 18cm, and my lower arm circumference at the thickest is more than 42cm. Now, I wasn't training for a long time, I'm not a regular archer, I prefer two-handed weapons, and still... I simply can't believe that a full-time warrior can have such a tiny arm. Even the most flaring vambrace on the pics have about 1/1.5=1,666 wrist/thick area ratio, while 42/18=2,333, and it's AFTER the non-training period.

One thing occured to me though: isn't it possible that these were the possessions of the upper classes, and were mostly decorative? I mean, if it has silver on it, repousse, etc, it's not likely that it's owner was a full-time fighter, who don't care much for politics. Or am I, again, and idiot?

Hi Ahriman,
I'm not sure what you mean about the "krug" disc being modified. The disc already covers the entire abdomen and part of the chest as well. The zertsalo is just the Russian version of the krug, in fact krug itself is a Russian word. This type of armour was used in Turkey, Iran and Russian the 16th and 17th centuries so there was probably a lot of variation already. In fact Islamic/Oriental armour was made by a single craftsman working with a group of apprentices not mass produced in a factory, so I doubt that any two krugs would be identical.

As for the bazubands being small, I don't understand it either, but I doubt all the examples we have are all purely decorative. Many of these must have been made for combat, yes many may have been made for high-ranking officers or for elite guard units, but even these chaps would get involved in combat if the battle went the wrong way.

It's possible also we have completely misunderstood the way these things were worn.

I'm not sure what you mean by the metacarpal either. Turkish and Iranian bazubands often had mail "mittens" attached while Indian bazubands (known as dastanas) either had mail mittens or padded fabric mittens.

Anyway I'll throw in a few more of my photos:

First a pair of Indian dastanas from the Victoria and Albert Museum in London:

A partial 16th century Ottoman krug from the Royal Armouries museum:

An 18th century Iranian armour set. I can't remember if this this set is early or late 18th century. The difference is important. Armour made before 1750 is more like to be functional armour designed for combat and the mail links are rivetted, whereas armour made after about 1750 is usually ceremonial and mail components are invariably unriveted.

Lastly an 18th century Sindi armour from the Royal Armouries:

Ahriman · 13th September 2005, 09:33 PM

My fault again... I meant metacarpal plate. I know about the mittens, but that'd be far from enough... especially if there's the possibility of meeting a hammer, a club, an axe... Not to mention a two-hander sword.

With them being small, I meant that even MY arm has a wrist/thickest part circumference ratio of 18/42, which is quite far from these vambraces. They don't widen enough for a muscular arm, which would be normal for an archer-swordsman. The last one you posted is getting closer if I see it correctly, but MOST of these are... small, and it's strange to me. If you still can't understand my rambling, learn hungarian so I can explain it in my mother language...

About the zertsalo-krug thing, I thought the same, but thoughts like this often cause me trouble... For example I don't understand why would a Berserk*-ish armour impossible in the 16th century, Germany. Grotesque, fluted, working. Then...?
* I mean the manga, not the viking bastard.

Ahriman · 13th September 2005, 09:42 PM

Forgot to add. Thanks for the pictures... where are they from? I mean, the photos, not the pieces. Are these yours? If so, you're far luckier than me...

I'm planning to visit ANY of these museums since... well, since I was 8. That was long ago.
For the char-ai-na set, I'd bet late period. The links are very small, and unless it's a masterpiece, it's impossible to be rivetted. You see, there's little to no uneveness in the aventail, while a rivet or the widened rivet base would cause such effect. It's too smooth. BUT if it's rivetted, I'm going to visit it even if I had to walk there. That'd mean EXTREMELY fine work. Hm, but then, it'd be the suit of a VERY wealthy person...
Thanks for the Sind armour... I've seen only 2 pictures of them before this. Could you please give me more info about them? Or at least point me to the good direction?

And a last thing: is there a picture showing close-up on the repousse work of the full krug armour down there? It seems beautiful... But it's a rather small picture.

Thanks!

Ahriman · 13th September 2005, 09:54 PM

Just now, in an email, I've received a link, where I've found this picture.

Now, I think that #5 and #11 is too familiar. It seems to me that they could be theoretically joined with the #3 down on this page, which Aqtai posted. I know that neither of the show signs of connection, but the familiar design is strange to me. COULD have been there a connection between India and Japan? More precisely, is it possible that the Japans had acces to Indian stuff? Because, if so, we'd have a clear link. (at least, I think) And it'd result in a plate mitten, with plate wirst lame, and mail connection between the wirst, metacarpal, and vambrace plates.
I do know it's a crazy theory, but what do you think?

Aqtai · 14th September 2005, 08:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ahriman

Forgot to add. Thanks for the pictures... where are they from? I mean, the photos, not the pieces. Are these yours? If so, you're far luckier than me...

I'm planning to visit ANY of these museums since... well, since I was 8. That was long ago.
For the char-ai-na set, I'd bet late period. The links are very small, and unless it's a masterpiece, it's impossible to be rivetted. You see, there's little to no uneveness in the aventail, while a rivet or the widened rivet base would cause such effect. It's too smooth. BUT if it's rivetted, I'm going to visit it even if I had to walk there. That'd mean EXTREMELY fine work. Hm, but then, it'd be the suit of a VERY wealthy person...
Thanks for the Sind armour... I've seen only 2 pictures of them before this. Could you please give me more info about them? Or at least point me to the good direction?

And a last thing: is there a picture showing close-up on the repousse work of the full krug armour down there? It seems beautiful... But it's a rather small picture.

Thanks!

The photos were all taken by myself a few months ago at the Royal Armouries Museum in Leeds, it is the closest Museum to where I live and as far as I know one of the last remaining big public collections of of Oriental armour in England that is still open. The V&A closed their main arms and armour collection and the only the few pieces remaining in the South Asia section can now be seen by the public. The Wallace Collection is also open, but exhibits mainly later Indian and Iranian armour, it has no Turkish stuff and doesn't allow photography. I'm afraid I wasn't particularly interested in the damaged krug at the time as there was an intact krug next to it. So that's the biggest photo i have of it.

I've placed a lot of my Royal Armoury photos on the User-submitted photos section of the myarmoury.com website.
http://www.myarmoury.com/albums/thum...lbum=50&page=1

Ahriman · 14th September 2005, 08:53 AM

Sorry, I meant that picture from the book... I can see the damaged one's repousse well enough.

That's sad... but less sad than our country... one of our museums has about 50 japanase weapons... displays 0... has more than 100 katars... displays 0... has late-period japanase full armours... display 0... I'm VERY mad at them.

12th September 2005, 04:03 AM	#1
rasdan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur Posts: 369	Ic, thanks Shah Hi Ahriman, Love your work on the plates. Finishing the armour would give more or less same muscle built as the one on the plates.

13th September 2005, 04:06 PM	#2
Ahriman Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Hungary Posts: 72	Thanks! (((Then buy some ))) Nice pictures, thanks again! I know that most of you are familiar with these... but I couldn't find them earlier... And it's a good thing to have them in one place, isn't it? (((This means: post even more!!! ))) I was thinking. Would it be possible to make a modified krug? I mean, I like it, I have made one already, but I'd prefer a smaller disc, and a bit higher, so it could cover the solar plexus. Um, it'd look almost like a zertsalo, just with m&p construction. So, full circle: would it be "authentic"? (If it was hard to understand, I can post a drawing.) Vambraces: nice, but I still lack the full metacarpal. Is it because it's my modern idiotism, or it was rare, or what..? Arm sizes: it'd be OK if it would be to scale. I mean, hand smaller, arms smaller, ok, but the proportions are still not ok. My wrist circumference is 18cm, and my lower arm circumference at the thickest is more than 42cm. Now, I wasn't training for a long time, I'm not a regular archer, I prefer two-handed weapons, and still... I simply can't believe that a full-time warrior can have such a tiny arm. Even the most flaring vambrace on the pics have about 1/1.5=1,666 wrist/thick area ratio, while 42/18=2,333, and it's AFTER the non-training period. One thing occured to me though: isn't it possible that these were the possessions of the upper classes, and were mostly decorative? I mean, if it has silver on it, repousse, etc, it's not likely that it's owner was a full-time fighter, who don't care much for politics. Or am I, again, and idiot?

13th September 2005, 09:33 PM	#4
Ahriman Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Hungary Posts: 72	My fault again... I meant metacarpal plate. I know about the mittens, but that'd be far from enough... especially if there's the possibility of meeting a hammer, a club, an axe... Not to mention a two-hander sword. With them being small, I meant that even MY arm has a wrist/thickest part circumference ratio of 18/42, which is quite far from these vambraces. They don't widen enough for a muscular arm, which would be normal for an archer-swordsman. The last one you posted is getting closer if I see it correctly, but MOST of these are... small, and it's strange to me. If you still can't understand my rambling, learn hungarian so I can explain it in my mother language... About the zertsalo-krug thing, I thought the same, but thoughts like this often cause me trouble... For example I don't understand why would a Berserk-ish armour impossible in the 16th century, Germany. Grotesque, fluted, working. Then...? I mean the manga, not the viking bastard.

13th September 2005, 09:42 PM	#5
Ahriman Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Hungary Posts: 72	Forgot to add. Thanks for the pictures... where are they from? I mean, the photos, not the pieces. Are these yours? If so, you're far luckier than me... I'm planning to visit ANY of these museums since... well, since I was 8. That was long ago. For the char-ai-na set, I'd bet late period. The links are very small, and unless it's a masterpiece, it's impossible to be rivetted. You see, there's little to no uneveness in the aventail, while a rivet or the widened rivet base would cause such effect. It's too smooth. BUT if it's rivetted, I'm going to visit it even if I had to walk there. That'd mean EXTREMELY fine work. Hm, but then, it'd be the suit of a VERY wealthy person... Thanks for the Sind armour... I've seen only 2 pictures of them before this. Could you please give me more info about them? Or at least point me to the good direction? And a last thing: is there a picture showing close-up on the repousse work of the full krug armour down there? It seems beautiful... But it's a rather small picture. Thanks!

13th September 2005, 09:54 PM	#6
Ahriman Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Hungary Posts: 72	Just now, in an email, I've received a link, where I've found this picture. Now, I think that #5 and #11 is too familiar. It seems to me that they could be theoretically joined with the #3 down on this page, which Aqtai posted. I know that neither of the show signs of connection, but the familiar design is strange to me. COULD have been there a connection between India and Japan? More precisely, is it possible that the Japans had acces to Indian stuff? Because, if so, we'd have a clear link. (at least, I think) And it'd result in a plate mitten, with plate wirst lame, and mail connection between the wirst, metacarpal, and vambrace plates. I do know it's a crazy theory, but what do you think?

14th September 2005, 08:53 AM	#8
Ahriman Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Hungary Posts: 72	Sorry, I meant that picture from the book... I can see the damaged one's repousse well enough. That's sad... but less sad than our country... one of our museums has about 50 japanase weapons... displays 0... has more than 100 katars... displays 0... has late-period japanase full armours... display 0... I'm VERY mad at them.