Saif for comment

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by spiral

Lovely Saif Tatiana!

The so called Mazir i Sharif stamp is actualy an Afghan goverment property marking. Nothing to do with the Mosque at Mazir i Sharif or an armoury there.

It was often stamped at Kabul arsenal on both localy made pieces & on imported swords & bayonets.

spiral

Actually the stamp is the regime stamp used during the rule of Emir Abdur Rahman Khan (r.1880-1901) and probably after by his son. It actually represents the Shrine of Hazrat Ali, the Mosque at Mazir i Sharif (Mazir i Sharif = Noble Shrine) and was used on coinage as well as seen on these stamped weapons.
It seems that these kinds of 'royal property' stamps are often regarded as 'arsenal' stamps in a number of cases with Indian arms as well, when a specific location was not necessarily indicated.
This was explained by AJ last year in the discussion linked, and in his post in this thread. Actually his post was what reminded me as I wrote my last post.

As also noted, the marking on Tatyana's sa'if is of a type used and diffused somewhat widely through the trade spheres mentioned and do not appear to be connected to the Afghan 'royal property' markings.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams all ~ I think the stamp is Omani though I have never seen one before. Whilst it doesnt look like the Afghan mark it may be a stamp from that region however I suspect Omani Military as a possible solution.

Here below is the Omani emblem. It occurs on the National Flag and was in fact the Oman Army capbadge. Is the sword stamp derived from this flag insignia? ~ I have to say that although I have never seen this stamp before it may be a mark used on Zanzibari or military swords of that period (I havent seen any of them either! and I have never been to Zanzibar !!)

On blades on this style~ though there is no concrete rule~ I thought the blades were derived usually from Shashqa for this type of Nimcha sword and Karabela swords?

What is the true relationship between this sword and the Moroccan (Algerian and North African) and which one came first?

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[spiral]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Actually the stamp is the regime stamp used during the rule of Emir Abdur Rahman Khan (r.1880-1901) and probably after by his son. It actually represents the Shrine of Hazrat Ali, the Mosque at Mazir i Sharif (Mazir i Sharif = Noble Shrine) and was used on coinage as well as seen on these stamped weapons.
It seems that these kinds of 'royal property' stamps are often regarded as 'arsenal' stamps in a number of cases with Indian arms as well, when a specific location was not necessarily indicated.
This was explained by AJ last year in the discussion linked, and in his post in this thread. Actually his post was what reminded me as I wrote my last post.

As also noted, the marking on Tatyana's sa'if is of a type used and diffused somewhat widely through the trade spheres mentioned and do not appear to be connected to the Afghan 'royal property' markings.

Thanks Jim, Id looked at hundreds of photos of the mosque & it made no sense, as soon as you add the word shrine it all comes together, Thank you!

I think the same crest has been used by many goverments of Afghanistan untill the present day?

Spiral

[Jim McDougall]

Spiral thank you for the kind note on my comments on the marking.
It does seem clearer understanding more on this puzzling marking which was an indicator of Islamic government used on Afghan weapons and coins.

I wanted to add the photo of one of the Afghan military swords in the 2nd image (which often carry this stamp in the forte) to illustrate the similarity in the rounded fuller terminal at the forte. I had often wondered where these heavy and crisply made blades were from thinking that perhaps they were Solingen 'blanks'. The block ricasso caused me to think they were European at the time. In view of information discussed here and rethinking, it does seem these may have been produced in Kabul in the 1880s after the 2nd Afghan War and with the British presence and influence, since this was the location for the arsenal.
The 'shashka' of Afghan form (3rd image) and remarkably similar type blade to Tatyanas sa'if has the 'Afghan government stamp' discussed along with two others of different content.

The other illustration (1st image) is of a kaskara which has one of the deep stamps as seen on Tatyanas sa'if, at least in form, in the centrally situated fuller. It is one of the 'Kasallawi' types which are presumed made in the 20th century, perhaps as late as 1960s.

In earlier discussions we have seen similar stamps of this heavily struck form on knives with unresolved classification (often in triplicate stamping) but which seem to me to be likely of North Indian origin. These have a kind of arched back profile resembling the kukri in degree. With the British influence in North India and influence of Nepalese kukris known in these Indian regions, there may be some connection establishing this deeply struck X and lines type stamp in areas of Northern India which produced blades using these marks or similar.

We know that some blades from India did end up used in Sudanese kaskara though not in great number, and it is curious to see similar stamped marks used on one of these blades, contrary to markings typically found.

We also may presume that blades of European form with block ricasso may have been produced in India, perhaps modelled on imports which could have come from Solingen. It seems earlier it had been suggested that Solingen may have been producing 'blanks' for North African markets.

These thoughts of course pertain to the possible provenance of Tatyana's sa'if, with the much broader picture of the development of the 'nimcha' form needing much more intricate review. We have had many discussions on this topic, but most seem to have been inconclusive, which follows of course the question of the development and forms of these sa'if.

While possibly better discussed on a separate thread, I will note here that I think the kastane, though somewhat resembling the hilt systems of the Arabian sa'if and Italian stortas and other swords of 15th century probably developed from European models. It does seem that the jinete type swords, some of which have certain similar quillon arrangements, may well have developed through the Italian influence as well. The arms of Spain and Italy have often been closely associated.

All the best,
Jim

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Spiral thank you for the kind note on my comments on the marking.
It does seem clearer understanding more on this puzzling marking which was an indicator of Islamic government used on Afghan weapons and coins.

I wanted to add the photo of one of the Afghan military swords in the 2nd image (which often carry this stamp in the forte) to illustrate the similarity in the rounded fuller terminal at the forte. I had often wondered where these heavy and crisply made blades were from thinking that perhaps they were Solingen 'blanks'. The block ricasso caused me to think they were European at the time. In view of information discussed here and rethinking, it does seem these may have been produced in Kabul in the 1880s after the 2nd Afghan War and with the British presence and influence, since this was the location for the arsenal.
The 'shashka' of Afghan form (3rd image) and remarkably similar type blade to Tatyanas sa'if has the 'Afghan government stamp' discussed along with two others of different content.

The other illustration (1st image) is of a kaskara which has one of the deep stamps as seen on Tatyanas sa'if, at least in form, in the centrally situated fuller. It is one of the 'Kasallawi' types which are presumed made in the 20th century, perhaps as late as 1960s.

In earlier discussions we have seen similar stamps of this heavily struck form on knives with unresolved classification (often in triplicate stamping) but which seem to me to be likely of North Indian origin. These have a kind of arched back profile resembling the kukri in degree. With the British influence in North India and influence of Nepalese kukris known in these Indian regions, there may be some connection establishing this deeply struck X and lines type stamp in areas of Northern India which produced blades using these marks or similar.

We know that some blades from India did end up used in Sudanese kaskara though not in great number, and it is curious to see similar stamped marks used on one of these blades, contrary to markings typically found.

We also may presume that blades of European form with block ricasso may have been produced in India, perhaps modelled on imports which could have come from Solingen. It seems earlier it had been suggested that Solingen may have been producing 'blanks' for North African markets.

These thoughts of course pertain to the possible provenance of Tatyana's sa'if, with the much broader picture of the development of the 'nimcha' form needing much more intricate review. We have had many discussions on this topic, but most seem to have been inconclusive, which follows of course the question of the development and forms of these sa'if.

While possibly better discussed on a separate thread, I will note here that I think the kastane, though somewhat resembling the hilt systems of the Arabian sa'if and Italian stortas and other swords of 15th century probably developed from European models. It does seem that the jinete type swords, some of which have certain similar quillon arrangements, may well have developed through the Italian influence as well. The arms of Spain and Italy have often been closely associated.

All the best,
Jim

Salaams Jim ~ Brilliant picture of the same stamp as on the project sword at # 1. That saves me a trip to Zanzibar !! That stamp...It looks similar to the Union Jack !
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Congoblades]

I have almost identical Saif as kahnjar1. Could this be rhino?

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Congoblades

I have almost identical Saif as kahnjar1. Could this be rhino?

Salaams ~ Yes I would say Rhino looking at the end. No Ricasso however. Any blade marks? Any history on this one? Can the blade be shown?

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[T. Koch]

Congoblades, I'm with Ibrahim: It certainly could be rhino horn. On the other hand it could also be a combination of old buffalo horn with a light and very pretty grain and you having a kickass camera. A macro-shot of the cross-section - from the butt of the handle, would tell for sure.

Best wishes, -Thor

[Congoblades]

Thanks Ibrahiim. There are no markings on the blade. Was brought back by a belgian para during the food aid in the Sahel in the early seventies.