Two Arab ex-Enfield Pattern 1853 guns

Mefidk · 12th August 2012, 09:22 AM

Hi Adrian
That is very interesting, thanks for coming in on this. I've heard this mentioned before. I guess that there may be more to the story in this case though, since this lock on one gun at least dates to before the Indian mutiny (1855 contra 1857). Of course the lock may have been replaced by an earlier one, or maybe there were smooth bore P53s in circulation too. I guess a third possibility could be that rifled early Enfields could have been bored smooth for reissue (if that is technically possible

).
Between the two guns we have quite a selection of military stamps on he barrels. I wonder if you know if there is any way to use these stamps to separate colonial issue guns from the regular army, or provide hints to their history?
Chris

adrian · 12th August 2012, 10:46 AM

The British Govt did not smooth bore rifled guns, so if these are ex Brit Mil barrels the bore out was by a subsequent owner. Best thing would be to post good images of all markings to lock, stock (doubtful that any will still be there) & barrel so we can determine from those what we can. It will entail removing the lock & barrel though to get at all the marks.
Adrian

rickystl · 12th August 2012, 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by adrian

The British Govt did not smooth bore rifled guns, so if these are ex Brit Mil barrels the bore out was by a subsequent owner. Best thing would be to post good images of all markings to lock, stock (doubtful that any will still be there) & barrel so we can determine from those what we can. It will entail removing the lock & barrel though to get at all the marks.
Adrian

Once I receive mine, I'll clean up the lock and barrel and take photos of any markings on the lock and barrel. As you mentioned, there is probably stamps on the bottom of the barrels. But I suspect barrel removal may prove difficult, if not impossible without damaging the stock. That is, if the silver decoration surrounding the barrel is attached with small nails. I'll have to wait till it arrives and decide then. Thanks for your input. Most helpful. Rick.

rickystl · 22nd August 2012, 05:03 PM

Well, I "thought" I was to be the co-owner of the second gun. Our Forum member Mefidk cannot find a way to ship this gun from Denmark to the USA. The laws in Denmark do apparently allow a muzzle loading firearm made before 1880 to be shipped. In spite of this, the local Denmark Postal Service does not want to ship it anyway. Thir own rules. Apparently we can get UPS to ship it - for $580USD!!!!!

Others either don't want to ship it, or want an outragous amount of money to ship it. The situation is even worse for swords or knives.
The irony is that these two guns were shipped to it's current owner in denmark - from Sweden. Apparently, there seems to be no problem shipping these items INTO Denmark, but you can't ship them OUT.

Mefidk has gone above and beyound the call of duty in trying to find a way to ship this gun to me. Thought I would post this story here on the Forum to see if anyone might have a different idea of how to ship this gun to me? Any help much appreciated.

About a year ago I purchased a gun from a fellow Forum member who lives in France. He shipped the antique percussion muzzle loader to me by Postal Service and I received the gun in 5 days!!!

I guess maybe I'm partially "ranting" here. Can't believe the regulations some Countries have on antique weapons. Thanks for reading. Rick.

Norman McCormick · 22nd August 2012, 05:33 PM

Hi Rick,
Germany is next door, is the postal service there as 'picky'? or could it be more easily shipped to a member in France and then on from there? Internal E.U. post from Denmark might not be as restrictive for 'antique militaria'. Just thinking aloud

My Regards,
Norman.

TVV · 22nd August 2012, 10:39 PM

I think Norman has the best idea: drive the item to a neighboring EU country with a more reasonable postal service and ship it from there.
Alternatively, maybe mefdik can try to disassemble the gun and ship stock, barrel and lock in separate packages. I had huge problems receiving a dress dagger that I bought on eBay from Italy last year, with the Italian postal service being just as difficult as the Danish appears to be. Finally, the seller disassembled the dagger and it arrived without further problems in separate packages. I am asusming that 3 separate Denmark Postal Service packages will cost less than $580 (UPS quote).

Regards,
Teodor

Mefidk · 23rd August 2012, 05:28 AM

Yes I'm really sorry about this situation. I even switched my attention away from sharp pointy things to muzzle-loading guns because I know that as far as Danish law is concerned these are not classified as weapons if made before 1870, and I figured this might mean I could actually sell some of my collection rather than just stock-pile it. But it seems that all the Danish-based carriers either won't ship them or will only do it if I register myself as a business, get a contract with them, then they will charge an arm and a leg

.

I actually got them shipped in from Sweden by a weapons licensed carrier - the only way to do it from the auction house. It cost almost as much as I paid for the guns!

Thanks for the suggestions Norman and Teodor. I'm not sure what the postal system in Germany is like, but I can find out. I know the situation is difficult in the UK, and by the sounds of it Italy. Unfortunately I'm not near a border, so unless I happen to be passing through its not practical.

Norman may be correct about internal shipping in EU. The problem here was that the parcel was x-rayed at Copenhagen and returned, but EU shipments may avoid this because there is no customs duty to be paid, and therefore fewer checks, but it will be a lottery. Also it is possible to find carriers within EU that are not so difficult, but these are more expensive than the post office.

Dismantling may be a good choice. The PO won't carry weapons parts, but perhaps if I send the barrel first and it slips through, then the non-metal and smaller parts should be OK. Since if I'm keeping it I'd want to treat the rust under the barrel (which I guess will be there), then I'd have to dismantle anyway, so its worth a try. Just hope I can do it without damaging the silver work.

All in all for those of us sitting in countries with these annoying rules it does mean our chosen hobby is becoming increasingly difficult. There are only so many interesting ethnographic items in Denmark!

Chris

12th August 2012, 09:22 AM	#1
Mefidk Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Denmark Posts: 157	Hi Adrian That is very interesting, thanks for coming in on this. I've heard this mentioned before. I guess that there may be more to the story in this case though, since this lock on one gun at least dates to before the Indian mutiny (1855 contra 1857). Of course the lock may have been replaced by an earlier one, or maybe there were smooth bore P53s in circulation too. I guess a third possibility could be that rifled early Enfields could have been bored smooth for reissue (if that is technically possible ). Between the two guns we have quite a selection of military stamps on he barrels. I wonder if you know if there is any way to use these stamps to separate colonial issue guns from the regular army, or provide hints to their history? Chris

12th August 2012, 10:46 AM	#2
adrian Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 130	The British Govt did not smooth bore rifled guns, so if these are ex Brit Mil barrels the bore out was by a subsequent owner. Best thing would be to post good images of all markings to lock, stock (doubtful that any will still be there) & barrel so we can determine from those what we can. It will entail removing the lock & barrel though to get at all the marks. Adrian

22nd August 2012, 05:03 PM	#4
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,630	Well, I "thought" I was to be the co-owner of the second gun. Our Forum member Mefidk cannot find a way to ship this gun from Denmark to the USA. The laws in Denmark do apparently allow a muzzle loading firearm made before 1880 to be shipped. In spite of this, the local Denmark Postal Service does not want to ship it anyway. Thir own rules. Apparently we can get UPS to ship it - for $580USD!!!!! Others either don't want to ship it, or want an outragous amount of money to ship it. The situation is even worse for swords or knives. The irony is that these two guns were shipped to it's current owner in denmark - from Sweden. Apparently, there seems to be no problem shipping these items INTO Denmark, but you can't ship them OUT. Mefidk has gone above and beyound the call of duty in trying to find a way to ship this gun to me. Thought I would post this story here on the Forum to see if anyone might have a different idea of how to ship this gun to me? Any help much appreciated. About a year ago I purchased a gun from a fellow Forum member who lives in France. He shipped the antique percussion muzzle loader to me by Postal Service and I received the gun in 5 days!!! I guess maybe I'm partially "ranting" here. Can't believe the regulations some Countries have on antique weapons. Thanks for reading. Rick.

22nd August 2012, 05:33 PM	#5
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,613	Hi Rick, Germany is next door, is the postal service there as 'picky'? or could it be more easily shipped to a member in France and then on from there? Internal E.U. post from Denmark might not be as restrictive for 'antique militaria'. Just thinking aloud My Regards, Norman.

22nd August 2012, 10:39 PM	#6
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,660	I think Norman has the best idea: drive the item to a neighboring EU country with a more reasonable postal service and ship it from there. Alternatively, maybe mefdik can try to disassemble the gun and ship stock, barrel and lock in separate packages. I had huge problems receiving a dress dagger that I bought on eBay from Italy last year, with the Italian postal service being just as difficult as the Danish appears to be. Finally, the seller disassembled the dagger and it arrived without further problems in separate packages. I am asusming that 3 separate Denmark Postal Service packages will cost less than $580 (UPS quote). Regards, Teodor

23rd August 2012, 05:28 AM	#7
Mefidk Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Denmark Posts: 157	Yes I'm really sorry about this situation. I even switched my attention away from sharp pointy things to muzzle-loading guns because I know that as far as Danish law is concerned these are not classified as weapons if made before 1870, and I figured this might mean I could actually sell some of my collection rather than just stock-pile it. But it seems that all the Danish-based carriers either won't ship them or will only do it if I register myself as a business, get a contract with them, then they will charge an arm and a leg . I actually got them shipped in from Sweden by a weapons licensed carrier - the only way to do it from the auction house. It cost almost as much as I paid for the guns! Thanks for the suggestions Norman and Teodor. I'm not sure what the postal system in Germany is like, but I can find out. I know the situation is difficult in the UK, and by the sounds of it Italy. Unfortunately I'm not near a border, so unless I happen to be passing through its not practical. Norman may be correct about internal shipping in EU. The problem here was that the parcel was x-rayed at Copenhagen and returned, but EU shipments may avoid this because there is no customs duty to be paid, and therefore fewer checks, but it will be a lottery. Also it is possible to find carriers within EU that are not so difficult, but these are more expensive than the post office. Dismantling may be a good choice. The PO won't carry weapons parts, but perhaps if I send the barrel first and it slips through, then the non-metal and smaller parts should be OK. Since if I'm keeping it I'd want to treat the rust under the barrel (which I guess will be there), then I'd have to dismantle anyway, so its worth a try. Just hope I can do it without damaging the silver work. All in all for those of us sitting in countries with these annoying rules it does mean our chosen hobby is becoming increasingly difficult. There are only so many interesting ethnographic items in Denmark! Chris