New Gunong

Battara · 11th August 2012, 02:36 AM

Yes I agree David. This one you posted would definitely be post WWII. I base that on the style of mounts on the scabbard, the work on the blade, and especially the type of ferrule.

Sajen · 11th August 2012, 03:07 PM

Hi David,

yes I bid because I like it!

Let us maybe not look to the time these gunongs are made, the question is: for whom are they made? Cant believe that this niece pieces are made for "tourists"!? Am I wrong??

David · 11th August 2012, 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hi David,

yes I bid because I like it!

Let us maybe not look to the time these gunongs are made, the question is: for whom are they made? Cant believe that this niece pieces are made for "tourists"!? Am I wrong??

Well, i don't think we can look at one of these questions and not the other Detlef. You put forth the idea/question that post WW2 gunongs were all made for the tourist trade.
"Post WW2 gunongs are made in my opinion for "tourists" and not for locals..."
Personally, i do not think that is true. So we agree on one front and not another i guess. I think there was definitely some call for some indigenous ownership of these weapons after WW2. Of course there is also a high-end "tourist" market, or rather a "collectors" market that i think some makers in the Philippines may still cater to. I cannot find the link (perhaps someone can assist) that was posted a while back of a current Philippines workshop that seemed to be putting out some very nicely made gunongs along with other Moro weapons. If the market is there and there are customers willing to pay for quality materials, the means and know-how do still exist to create it.

Battara · 11th August 2012, 06:13 PM

You also must understand that there are also datus during WWII and perhaps some of these were made for them.

David · 11th August 2012, 06:36 PM

Absolutely Jose, and though i don't know the history i would image that datus probably held some esteem even after the war. Anyone have a better grasp on this part of Philippines history?

David · 11th August 2012, 06:42 PM

For comparison here is an ivory hilted blade that i am pretty sure dates pre-WW2 and probably back as far as the turn of the century. Note the pommel is more elongated. Fittings are silver. Though it's hard to photograph with motion, the sheath is a beautiful chatoyant wood with a real nice flashing grain.
Size: Overall in sheath, 9inches. Blade alone, 5 1/4 inches.

David · 11th August 2012, 07:03 PM

BTW Robert, i can't get my wife to buy me anything blade related. Perhaps we could work out some kind of cultural exchange...

Sajen · 11th August 2012, 09:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

For comparison here is an ivory hilted blade that i am pretty sure dates pre-WW2 and probably back as far as the turn of the century. Note the pommel is more elongated. Fittings are silver. Though it's hard to photograph with motion, the sheath is a beautiful chatoyant wood with a real nice flashing grain.
Size: Overall in sheath, 9inches. Blade alone, 5 1/4 inches.

Again David,

this one is not fancy but beautiful and I am green with envy!

Sajen · 11th August 2012, 09:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

You also must understand that there are also datus during WWII and perhaps some of these were made for them.

This is exactly what I think about Roberts gunong!

Sajen · 11th August 2012, 09:54 PM

[QUOTE=David]Well, i don't think we can look at one of these questions and not the other Detlef. You put forth the idea/question that post WW2 gunongs were all made for the tourist trade.
"Post WW2 gunongs are made in my opinion for "tourists" and not for locals..."
Personally, i do not think that is true. So we agree on one front and not another i guess. I think there was definitely some call for some indigenous ownership of these weapons after WW2.QUOTE]

It was my assumption that after WW2 were made for tourists. When it isn't like this we have agreement in all parts.
I simple have had problems to believe that Roberts gunong was made for tourists.

David · 12th August 2012, 10:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

Yes I agree David. This one you posted would definitely be post WWII. I base that on the style of mounts on the scabbard, the work on the blade, and especially the type of ferrule.

I think we both agree on the relative age on this blade, but if you look at the Krieger Plate at #9 you can see similar blade work at least dates to 1926 when this plate was made.

VANDOO · 14th August 2012, 05:11 PM

EVIDENTLY THESE KNIVES DO NOT EXHIST

I WENT THRU STONES GLOSSARY AND FOR THE FIRST TIME IT FAILED ME. I COULD NOT FIND IT MENTIONED AS GUNONG OR BADIK NOT EVEN A PICTURE IN THE ENTIRE BOOK UNLESS I MISSED IT. I HAD HOPED TO FIND IT IN STONES AS THAT WOULD HAVE AT LEAST ESTABLISHED IT PRE 1934 WHEN STONES WAS COPYWRITED. I DIDN'T SEE IT IN CATOS BOOK BUT AS IT DEALS SPECIFICALLY WITH MORO SWORDS ITS NOT A SURPRIZE.
I THINK I USED TO CALL WHAT IS TODAY CALLED A GUNONG A BADIK BUT AM NOT SURE. PERHAPS SOMEONE HAS OLDER BOOKS ON PHILIPPINE KNIVES AND SWORDS WHERE THESE DAGGERS ARE PICTURED SO A TIMELINE CAN BE ESTABLISHED.
AFTER WW2 THINGS WENT INTO HIGH GEAR IN THE PHILIPPINES WITH REBUILDING IT WAS A TIME OF GROWTH AND OPPORTUNITYS FOR GAINING WEALTH WERE ON THE RISE. THERE WAS PLENTY OF METAL EASILY AVAILABLE FOR THOSE WHO WORKED IT. SOLDIERS ALL HAD FIGHTING KNIVES SO IT IS LIKELY THE LOCALS WOULD BE LOOKING TO BUY A KNIFE TOO AND MANY MORE WOULD HAVE HAD THE MONEY TO AFFORD ONE. THE SOLDIERS WERE A READY MARKET TOO BUT WERE NOT THE ONLY MARKET. THE TOURISTS CAME A BIT LATER AFTER WW2 AS EVERYONE WAS EITHER REBUILDING OR CATCHING THEIR BREATH AFTER SUCH A TERRIBLE WAR.

I AM PRETTY SURE THE GUNONG WAS AROUND BEFORE WW2 BUT MOST WERE NOT FANCY OR LARGE AND WERE CARRIED CONCELED FOR PROTECTION NOT FOR DISPLAY OR WORK KNIVES. JUST CONJECTURE AS I NO LONGER REMEMBER WHERE I GOT THAT INFORMATION OR IDEA.

David · 14th August 2012, 05:37 PM

Kronckew, i like your first example. Looks well constructed. Are the fittings silver? So hard to tell in photos. Certainly a solid piece with some age on it. Again, i'm wondering when certain changes took place such as the more bulbous and pistol shaped hilt.

kronckew · 15th August 2012, 07:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Kronckew, i like your first example. Looks well constructed. Are the fittings silver? ...

hard to tell, definitely not aluminum, tarnish is black as i'd expect from silver. might be low grade Ag. doesn't look like the nickel 'silver' on some of my other knives.

the lower one's fittings appear to be tinned brass.

Battara · 15th August 2012, 09:50 PM

When I talk of bulbous I am referring to the large bulbous midsection like the large pistol grip of the later pieces. My silver one below is a smaller one and I believe it comes from the late 1910s to early 1920s.

Battara · 15th August 2012, 09:51 PM

By large and bulbous I am referring to this which I believe to be from the 1930s (also notice the bulbous pistol grip and the okir on the scabbard).

David · 14th August 2012, 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VANDOO

EVIDENTLY THESE KNIVES DO NOT EXHIST

I WENT THRU STONES GLOSSARY AND FOR THE FIRST TIME IT FAILED ME. I COULD NOT FIND IT MENTIONED AS GUNONG OR BADIK NOT EVEN A PICTURE IN THE ENTIRE BOOK UNLESS I MISSED IT. I HAD HOPED TO FIND IT IN STONES AS THAT WOULD HAVE AT LEAST ESTABLISHED IT PRE 1934 WHEN STONES WAS COPYWRITED. I DIDN'T SEE IT IN CATOS BOOK BUT AS IT DEALS SPECIFICALLY WITH MORO SWORDS ITS NOT A SURPRIZE.
I THINK I USED TO CALL WHAT IS TODAY CALLED A GUNONG A BADIK BUT AM NOT SURE. PERHAPS SOMEONE HAS OLDER BOOKS ON PHILIPPINE KNIVES AND SWORDS WHERE THESE DAGGERS ARE PICTURED SO A TIMELINE CAN BE ESTABLISHED.
AFTER WW2 THINGS WENT INTO HIGH GEAR IN THE PHILIPPINES WITH REBUILDING IT WAS A TIME OF GROWTH AND OPPORTUNITYS FOR GAINING WEALTH WERE ON THE RISE. THERE WAS PLENTY OF METAL EASILY AVAILABLE FOR THOSE WHO WORKED IT. SOLDIERS ALL HAD FIGHTING KNIVES SO IT IS LIKELY THE LOCALS WOULD BE LOOKING TO BUY A KNIFE TOO AND MANY MORE WOULD HAVE HAD THE MONEY TO AFFORD ONE. THE SOLDIERS WERE A READY MARKET TOO BUT WERE NOT THE ONLY MARKET. THE TOURISTS CAME A BIT LATER AFTER WW2 AS EVERYONE WAS EITHER REBUILDING OR CATCHING THEIR BREATH AFTER SUCH A TERRIBLE WAR.

I AM PRETTY SURE THE GUNONG WAS AROUND BEFORE WW2 BUT MOST WERE NOT FANCY OR LARGE AND WERE CARRIED CONCELED FOR PROTECTION NOT FOR DISPLAY OR WORK KNIVES. JUST CONJECTURE AS I NO LONGER REMEMBER WHERE I GOT THAT INFORMATION OR IDEA.

Barry, i'm not at home with my books, but did you check under the name "punal" or "kris punal"?

11th August 2012, 06:42 PM	#6
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	For comparison here is an ivory hilted blade that i am pretty sure dates pre-WW2 and probably back as far as the turn of the century. Note the pommel is more elongated. Fittings are silver. Though it's hard to photograph with motion, the sheath is a beautiful chatoyant wood with a real nice flashing grain. Size: Overall in sheath, 9inches. Blade alone, 5 1/4 inches. Attached Images

15th August 2012, 09:50 PM	#15
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	When I talk of bulbous I am referring to the large bulbous midsection like the large pistol grip of the later pieces. My silver one below is a smaller one and I believe it comes from the late 1910s to early 1920s. Attached Images

15th August 2012, 09:51 PM	#16
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	By large and bulbous I am referring to this which I believe to be from the 1930s (also notice the bulbous pistol grip and the okir on the scabbard). Attached Images

11th August 2012, 02:36 AM	#1
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	Yes I agree David. This one you posted would definitely be post WWII. I base that on the style of mounts on the scabbard, the work on the blade, and especially the type of ferrule.

11th August 2012, 03:07 PM	#2
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,164	Hi David, yes I bid because I like it! Let us maybe not look to the time these gunongs are made, the question is: for whom are they made? Cant believe that this niece pieces are made for "tourists"!? Am I wrong??

11th August 2012, 06:13 PM	#4
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	You also must understand that there are also datus during WWII and perhaps some of these were made for them.

11th August 2012, 06:36 PM	#5
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	Absolutely Jose, and though i don't know the history i would image that datus probably held some esteem even after the war. Anyone have a better grasp on this part of Philippines history?

11th August 2012, 07:03 PM	#7
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	BTW Robert, i can't get my wife to buy me anything blade related. Perhaps we could work out some kind of cultural exchange...

11th August 2012, 09:54 PM	#10
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,164	[QUOTE=David]Well, i don't think we can look at one of these questions and not the other Detlef. You put forth the idea/question that post WW2 gunongs were all made for the tourist trade. "Post WW2 gunongs are made in my opinion for "tourists" and not for locals..." Personally, i do not think that is true. So we agree on one front and not another i guess. I think there was definitely some call for some indigenous ownership of these weapons after WW2.QUOTE] It was my assumption that after WW2 were made for tourists. When it isn't like this we have agreement in all parts. I simple have had problems to believe that Roberts gunong was made for tourists.

14th August 2012, 05:11 PM	#12
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	EVIDENTLY THESE KNIVES DO NOT EXHIST I WENT THRU STONES GLOSSARY AND FOR THE FIRST TIME IT FAILED ME. I COULD NOT FIND IT MENTIONED AS GUNONG OR BADIK NOT EVEN A PICTURE IN THE ENTIRE BOOK UNLESS I MISSED IT. I HAD HOPED TO FIND IT IN STONES AS THAT WOULD HAVE AT LEAST ESTABLISHED IT PRE 1934 WHEN STONES WAS COPYWRITED. I DIDN'T SEE IT IN CATOS BOOK BUT AS IT DEALS SPECIFICALLY WITH MORO SWORDS ITS NOT A SURPRIZE. I THINK I USED TO CALL WHAT IS TODAY CALLED A GUNONG A BADIK BUT AM NOT SURE. PERHAPS SOMEONE HAS OLDER BOOKS ON PHILIPPINE KNIVES AND SWORDS WHERE THESE DAGGERS ARE PICTURED SO A TIMELINE CAN BE ESTABLISHED. AFTER WW2 THINGS WENT INTO HIGH GEAR IN THE PHILIPPINES WITH REBUILDING IT WAS A TIME OF GROWTH AND OPPORTUNITYS FOR GAINING WEALTH WERE ON THE RISE. THERE WAS PLENTY OF METAL EASILY AVAILABLE FOR THOSE WHO WORKED IT. SOLDIERS ALL HAD FIGHTING KNIVES SO IT IS LIKELY THE LOCALS WOULD BE LOOKING TO BUY A KNIFE TOO AND MANY MORE WOULD HAVE HAD THE MONEY TO AFFORD ONE. THE SOLDIERS WERE A READY MARKET TOO BUT WERE NOT THE ONLY MARKET. THE TOURISTS CAME A BIT LATER AFTER WW2 AS EVERYONE WAS EITHER REBUILDING OR CATCHING THEIR BREATH AFTER SUCH A TERRIBLE WAR. I AM PRETTY SURE THE GUNONG WAS AROUND BEFORE WW2 BUT MOST WERE NOT FANCY OR LARGE AND WERE CARRIED CONCELED FOR PROTECTION NOT FOR DISPLAY OR WORK KNIVES. JUST CONJECTURE AS I NO LONGER REMEMBER WHERE I GOT THAT INFORMATION OR IDEA.

14th August 2012, 05:37 PM	#13
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	Kronckew, i like your first example. Looks well constructed. Are the fittings silver? So hard to tell in photos. Certainly a solid piece with some age on it. Again, i'm wondering when certain changes took place such as the more bulbous and pistol shaped hilt.