Rhino Khanjar for comments

[A.alnakkas]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams A.alnakkas ~ You are of course right to request proper researched proof, alas, this weapon came out of the dark ages here... before 1970.
The indicators for the leather strips are there...(they are peculiar to that specific region only) as in my last e mail.

There are no leather strips. Its wool :-)

On age ~ I always try and get closer with the estimate so rather than late or early 20th C. I have given what I believe is a fair estimate.... adding 10 years because of what I consider is a switched hilt ... and not ignoring the potential of that hilt coming from an equally old dagger.

I very much respect your desire to be precise with the age, but there is no 100% answer really.

What is very exceptional is the close pin design in the pommel head. I have not seen that before. To me it is a very important discovery. It mirrors the design of Rhino( I mean in its spaghetti end formation or what I perceive as octagonal end form of its threads..seen in your same photo at #1 picture 5)...and is I believe vital to our understanding of that animals bearing on Omani Khanjar design.( My hypothesis is added at the end)

This is the only one I found in Artzi's site with similar pin decoration:

http://oriental-arms.com/photos.php?id=3186

Artzi suggests its 19th century though.

Nice photo that one by the way as it gives the perfect shot of Rhino Horn on an Omani dagger i.e. translucent as opposed to the oily dark type often seen on Yemeni daggers. However the pin design is a show stopper... #1 picture 5.

Agree, though you will find that Yemeni's have a larger preference of Rhino and categorize them within certain categories. Saifani being the most desired, so I have heard.

Back to the back~ so to speak. If I am right about the age of the dagger... and roughly about right on the age of the previous one ~ That means I am considering the work style from over 100 years ago based on the pins set in two concentric rings at the top and base of the back of the hilt which I point to as being switched from another Khanjar etc. I have to say that delving back so far into the dark ages really does require careful thought, much logic and a fair degree of working without a safety net...however nothing here is written in stone and I often find myself backtracking after I make an error or a correction to see how best to adjust for damage control...End of excuses. Over to the workshops boys...

Nothing wrong with that mate.

They say:

"Hilt turned. These are old pins holding the previous decoration to the horn. This is Rhino so would be re-used. Excellent work ... Pommel top highly exceptional. Can't figure out what happened to the front at the top of the TEE... which appears to be a silver plate instead of pins... maybe owing to what was there before when it was the reverse"

I am interested if your workshop have done such work before, or are they basing this on gut instinct maybe? included is a picture of the pin that hold the filigree of my other Omani khanjar, its equally old and the pin is much larger which makes sense. I highly doubt such fine and thin silver pins can hold filigree on a hilt that is used in dances, combat etc for long. I guess we need more examples to know for sure

Hypothesis..I put it to Forum that the design on the pommel top mirrors Rhino pattern (#1 picture 5.) and further, that the apparent curve in the scabbard is in recognition of the Rhino. ( also discussed at "The Omani Khanjar") http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14878 at # 50

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Its an interesting hypothesis for sure, we have a wealth of information here and elsewhere and I am looking through sites for more examples to compare with because one example is not much to build on!

[A.alnakkas]

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=rhino

See post 14. I think its a similar pin design (front that is, no pictures of the back side)

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

There are no leather strips. Its wool :-)



I very much respect your desire to be precise with the age, but there is no 100% answer really.



This is the only one I found in Artzi's site with similar pin decoration:

http://oriental-arms.com/photos.php?id=3186

Artzi suggests its 19th century though.



Agree, though you will find that Yemeni's have a larger preference of Rhino and categorize them within certain categories. Saifani being the most desired, so I have heard.



Nothing wrong with that mate.



I am interested if your workshop have done such work before, or are they basing this on gut instinct maybe? included is a picture of the pin that hold the filigree of my other Omani khanjar, its equally old and the pin is much larger which makes sense. I highly doubt such fine and thin silver pins can hold filigree on a hilt that is used in dances, combat etc for long. I guess we need more examples to know for sure



Its an interesting hypothesis for sure, we have a wealth of information here and elsewhere and I am looking through sites for more examples to compare with because one example is not much to build on!

Salaams A.alnakkas ~ It appears that the leather strips have been replaced by wool.. ( I thought perhaps the leather had deteriorated ) Probably replaced when it broke down. It appears they also used strips of felt.

Artzis weapon is a Salalah style. It could be late 19th C. Nice pin work.

See The Omani Khanjar http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14878 for a great reference on Rhino by Spiral plus the different names of Rhino of which Z'raf is a name applied here whilst the others appear to be used in the Yemen... and comparing the two regions I have no idea what percentage of hilts were Rhino in each but agree Yemeni work with Rhino hilt "seems" more common.

You state that Quote, (included is a picture of the pin that hold the filigree of my other Omani khanjar, its equally old and the pin is much larger which makes sense.) Unquote.

~Please show me a full picture as what I see looks like it is not an Omani Khanjar but Habaabi... Southern corner of Saudia. It appears that Yemeni/Saudia construction of hilts often used those big pins where as in Oman they were much finer~ Searching about I see #25 and a full picture of the dagger to which you refer... Its Habaabi... Saudia.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

There are no leather strips. Its wool :-)



I very much respect your desire to be precise with the age, but there is no 100% answer really.



This is the only one I found in Artzi's site with similar pin decoration:

http://oriental-arms.com/photos.php?id=3186

Artzi suggests its 19th century though.




Agree, though you will find that Yemeni's have a larger preference of Rhino and categorize them within certain categories. Saifani being the most desired, so I have heard.



Nothing wrong with that mate.



I am interested if your workshop have done such work before, or are they basing this on gut instinct maybe? included is a picture of the pin that hold the filigree of my other Omani khanjar, its equally old and the pin is much larger which makes sense. I highly doubt such fine and thin silver pins can hold filigree on a hilt that is used in dances, combat etc for long. I guess we need more examples to know for sure



Its an interesting hypothesis for sure, we have a wealth of information here and elsewhere and I am looking through sites for more examples to compare with because one example is not much to build on!

Salaams ~ For library purposes the photo at the base of your post at #38 is not an Omani Khanjar but comes from Saudia Arabia in the region to the south whose main port is Jazzan and cities include Abha and Habaabi The latter giving its name to this dagger. Habaabi. The construction though they look quite similar to Omani Khanjars is on closer inspection markedly different employing other techniques typical on Yemeni work (It was part of the Yemen circa pre 1923..) Use of mixed silver/copper and slight differences in the design such as a slightly larger crown and in one variant a much narrower body to the entire item. Designs favour two large buttons culminating at a point normally ending under the central decorative ferrule in mid hilt. The buttons unlike Omani buttons are fastened with a large peg or pin.

It is not chrystal clear what the exact linkage is between this region and Oman though obviously as a port Jazzan would have been engaged in heavy sea trade with Muscat and Zanzibar and I suggest the latter as a more likely consideration for the infusion of this design after its invention by one of the wives of Said bin Sultan in about 1840 (Sheherazade the Persian Princess) because of the Sultans engagement with that area essentially bringing it under Omani rule. Equally imperfect is the relationship between the Omani Royal Khanjar and this Habaabi weapon and to what extent it draws its style from the Omani type as it could also be influenced by the Muscat Khanjar which is also a 7 ringer.

It is because of its geographical location (and timings of the design of the Royal Omani Khanjar) that I favour the Royal link but research is as yet not forthcoming to pinpoint the question for now. Another question is why was it linked to Habaabi and not say Jazzan the sea port?

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Dom]

on the same subject, the khanjars
it is difficult to determine, what is the existing weapons,
before the reconquest of the country by Abdelaziz Al Saud, and those produced after ...
here, we are fortunate to have a photo of daggers collected at the end of last century ... so, before this pivotal period

from a book "Le catalogue de la collection d'armes anciennes, européennes et orientales" - Charles Buttin (in French)
book published in 1933, after the death of the collector, who began his collection before 1900
This is a rare book, and which consists of 284 pages and 32 sheets (annex) with ± 40 edged weapons in each photo,

the quality of my scan is average, but if I increase the size ... more, I'll get a blurry picture as a result.
the khanjars in display, are without doubt from the 19th century, if you want a fork of dates; let said going from 1850 to 1900
I let you appreciate, my friends, I did not resist sharing it with you

à +

Dom

ps/ the collector, and the book itself, are really references in the matter

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Dom

on the same subject, the khanjars
it is difficult to determine, what is the existing weapons,
before the reconquest of the country by Abdelaziz Al Saud, and those produced after ...
here, we are fortunate to have a photo of daggers collected at the end of last century ... so, before this pivotal period

from a book "Le catalogue de la collection d'armes anciennes, européennes et orientales" - Charles Buttin (in French)
book published in 1933, after the death of the collector, who began his collection before 1900
This is a rare book, and which consists of 284 pages and 32 sheets (annex) with ± 40 edged weapons in each photo,

the quality of my scan is average, but if I increase the size ... more, I'll get a blurry picture as a result.
the khanjars in display, are without doubt from the 19th century, if you want a fork of dates; let said going from 1850 to 1900
I let you appreciate, my friends, I did not resist sharing it with you

à +

Dom

ps/ the collector, and the book itself, are really references in the matter

References;
A. Kattara for comments. from #300 http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10455

B. The Omani Khanjar. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14878

Salaams Dom,
Thank you for posting this detail. I know the author is well respected. May we have the full package of information to go with the pictures so we can put it into perspective please?
It will be seen that it is easy to confuse Habaabi daggers with Omani. Both styles of Habaabi have the 7 rings and one is fatter whilst the other is quite slender in the body.They look like Omani Khanjars.

The crown, however, tends to be slightly larger than the Omani. Typically the hilt has two facing large buttons with the pointed decoration often hidden under a central ferrule in mid hilt. The decorative style of the triangular net holding the lower scabbard steady on the belt is different in both styles.

This weapon is discussed at The Omani Khanjar in some detail with photos. My hypothesis on this almost identical design is that the Habaabi design was taken from the circa 1840 Royal Khanjar style designed by The Persian princess and wife of Said bin Sultan who reigned 1804 to his death off Zanzibar in 1856. Sheherazad was her name.

It is clear that no other Yemeni design exists with such strong similarity to an Omani Dagger (the area was Yemeni before circa 1920) and Scabbard and I quote the sea trade link and the proximity to Zanzibar and Muscat (and naturally the sea trade route between) as the main reason for the transmission of style..

I repeat that the two are easily confused.

Posting Butin would be a great asset to our library. Thank you Dom.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Dom]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Posting Butin would be a great asset to our library. Thank you Dom.

Aleikum Salam Ibrahiim
ok ... I shall do it,
but previously ... I have to translate all comments ... from French to English
this is not the most exciting, but I gonna to do it, Inch'Allah

all the best

à +

Dom

[Dom]

Good day
as I didn't acquired my English, from an academic school,
and as far as it's a very technical idiom used to describe edged weapons,
the translation is a real chore ("pensum") also, I took the precaution to add the French version
sorry if it's a little bit "rigmarole", I'm doing my best, but sometime even the best it's not enough ...
I will present one per day ... thanks for your understanding

979 - DAGGER OF ARAB MUSCAT (Djambyia) eighteenth century (Pl. XXX)

Same blade, rather piqued by rust.
horn handle, flourishing toward the blade and forming its hilt in the style of fifteenth-century Swiss daggers. The guard is surrounded by a silver ferrule which covers the heel of the blade and fits over the chape. This ferrule is decorated with filigree and the outside of the horn of the handle is topped with a tight sowing of silver nails.
Wood scabbard covered with black cloth decorated with trimmings of silver (both pretty tired). small silver locket, and silver chape more developed, and decorated with filigree work similar to the ferrule of the handle. This scabbard still bears the four silver rings which serve to secure it the belt and a part of the belt with its silver buckle.
The scabbard for this type of Djambyia, instead of following the curve of the blade like its predecessors, is bent at right angles
Complete weapon, tired, but interesting nonetheless because of the scarcity of Arab weapons
Long. : 0.315 - Blade: 0.205


979 - POIGNARD ARABE DE MASCATE (Djambyia) XVIIIè siècle (Pl. XXX)

Même lame, assez piquée par la rouille.
Poignée en corne s’épanouissant vers la lame et formant son pommeau dans le genre des dagues suisses du XVè siècle. La garde est entourée d’une virole en argent qui recouvre le talon de la lame et s’emboîte sur la chape du fourreau. Cette virole est décorée de filigranes et la face extérieure de la corne de la poignée est garnie d’un semis serré de clous d’argent.
Fourreau en bois revêtu de drap noir décoré de passementeries d’argent (les deux assez fatigués). Courte bouterolle en argent uni et chape plus développe en argent et décorée d’un travail de filigrane semblable à celui de la virole de la poignée. Ce fourreau porte encore les quatre anneaux d’argent qui servent à l’assujettir à la ceinture et une partie de la ceinture avec sa boucle en argent.
Le fourreau de type Djambyia, au lieu de suivre la courbe de la lame comme les précédentes, se courbe à angle droit
Arme complète, fatiguée, mais intéressante néanmoins en raison de la rareté des armes arabes
Long. : 0,315 – Lame : 0,205

************************************************** ***********

980 - DAGGER OF ARAB MUSCAT (Djambyia) eighteenth century (Pl. XXX)

Blade same model, but better preserved.
Horn handle almost disappearing under the decor in silver filigree. Pommel trefoiled similarly decorated. The heel of the blade is surrounded by the silver ferrule that covers the lowest part of the flourishing of the handle and which engages the sheath: the collar is also decorated with filigree
Wood scabbard covered with black cloth and decorated like the previous, with silver trimmings. Silver chape, highly developed on the outside with the same filigree decor. In the middle of the scabbard on a sort of central pad, four strongly silver rings forged, retained by silver filigrees, used to attach the weapon on the front part of the belt.
From the collection Moser, Charlottenfels Castle, Schaffhausen.
Ancient weapon, rare and quite complete, but slightly tired.
Long. : Lame 0.305: 0.190


980 - POIGNARD ARABE DE MASCATE (Djambyia) XVIIIè siècle (Pl. XXX)

Lame de même modèle, mais mieux conservée.
Poignée en corne disparaissant presque sous le décor en filigrane d’argent. Pommeau trilobé pareillement décoré. Le talon de la lame est entouré de la virole d’argent qui recouvre l’épanouissement inférieur de la poignée et dans laquelle vient s’engager le fourreau : cette virole est aussi décorée de filigranes
Fourreau en bois revêtu de drap noir et comme le précédent décoré de passementeries d’argent. Chape en argent, très développé du coté extérieur avec le même décor filigrané. Au milieu du fourreau sur une sorte de coussinet, quatre forts anneaux en argent forgés retenus par des filigranes d’argent, servent à fixer l’arme sur le devant de la ceinture.
Provient de la collection Moser, château de Charlottenfels, Schaffhouse.
Arme ancienne, rare et bien complète, mais légèrement fatiguée.
Long. : 0,305 Lame : 0,190

à +

Dom

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Dom

Good day
as I didn't acquired my English, from an academic school,
and as far as it's a very technical idiom used to describe edged weapons,
the translation is a real chore ("pensum") also, I took the precaution to add the French version
sorry if it's a little bit "rigmarole", I'm doing my best, but sometime even the best it's not enough ...
I will present one per day ... thanks for your understanding

979 - DAGGER OF ARAB MUSCAT (Djambyia) eighteenth century (Pl. XXX)

Same blade, rather piqued by rust.
horn handle, flourishing toward the blade and forming its hilt in the style of fifteenth-century Swiss daggers. The guard is surrounded by a silver ferrule which covers the heel of the blade and fits over the chape. This ferrule is decorated with filigree and the outside of the horn of the handle is topped with a tight sowing of silver nails.
Wood scabbard covered with black cloth decorated with trimmings of silver (both pretty tired). small silver locket, and silver chape more developed, and decorated with filigree work similar to the ferrule of the handle. This scabbard still bears the four silver rings which serve to secure it the belt and a part of the belt with its silver buckle.
The scabbard for this type of Djambyia, instead of following the curve of the blade like its predecessors, is bent at right angles
Complete weapon, tired, but interesting nonetheless because of the scarcity of Arab weapons
Long. : 0.315 - Blade: 0.205


979 - POIGNARD ARABE DE MASCATE (Djambyia) XVIIIè siècle (Pl. XXX)

Même lame, assez piquée par la rouille.
Poignée en corne s’épanouissant vers la lame et formant son pommeau dans le genre des dagues suisses du XVè siècle. La garde est entourée d’une virole en argent qui recouvre le talon de la lame et s’emboîte sur la chape du fourreau. Cette virole est décorée de filigranes et la face extérieure de la corne de la poignée est garnie d’un semis serré de clous d’argent.
Fourreau en bois revêtu de drap noir décoré de passementeries d’argent (les deux assez fatigués). Courte bouterolle en argent uni et chape plus développe en argent et décorée d’un travail de filigrane semblable à celui de la virole de la poignée. Ce fourreau porte encore les quatre anneaux d’argent qui servent à l’assujettir à la ceinture et une partie de la ceinture avec sa boucle en argent.
Le fourreau de type Djambyia, au lieu de suivre la courbe de la lame comme les précédentes, se courbe à angle droit
Arme complète, fatiguée, mais intéressante néanmoins en raison de la rareté des armes arabes
Long. : 0,315 – Lame : 0,205

à +

Dom

Salaams Dom ~ Thank you for presenting Buttins work in such excellent English and for taking the time and trouble to translate and post. I hope this gets easier as you proceed ~ Buttin had few examples of Omani and Arab work to display going by his last sentence Quote "en raison de la rareté des armes arabes" Unquote and I wonder if this weapon is actually Omani or Yemeni (Habaabi).

I think we will give Buttin the benefit of the doubt in this case! However, it appears too narrow in the body to be Omani... but I rest my case at this time on this item as it may be because of the photo quality in the original document..

It is absolutely excellent to have your translation and I thank you for adding this vital research to Forum.

Salaams,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.