Two Arab ex-Enfield Pattern 1853 guns

Mefidk · 3rd August 2012, 06:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Mefidk ~ I have to say Im about out of ammo at this point ! Interesting thread thanks..

Salaams Ibrahiim - well it was worth a shot

Chris

rickystl · 7th August 2012, 08:48 PM

Hello all. Entering this Thread a little late. Full disclosure: I am the new owner of the less decorated gun. And I feel fortunate to have been able to purchase it. These Saudi - Bedouin decorated guns are often hard to come by. Especially when the gun started out as a complete M1853 Enfield. As mentioned above, I am hard pressed to think of a percussion musket more widely used throughout the world as the British Enfield.
The gun is on it's way to my house as I write this. Can't wait to see it.

Mefidk: Feel free to Post any and all photos desired on the Forum.
Apparently, both of these guns have smooth bores vs the .577 rifled barrel. I believe the British did make some M1853 style barrels in smooth bore sent to the Indian continent? But I will try to verify this - maybe on the European Forum? I also seem to recall reading that many barrels in the Eastern continent were re-bored to smooth. The barrels on both of these guns due look genuine British with the exception of the replaced rear sight to suite local tastes. Even the ramrods look correct.
Mefidk: Thanks again for your willingness to part with one. I will try to reciprocate at some future point. Rick.

adrian · 12th August 2012, 08:09 AM

Hi Rick yes the British made the Pattern 1858 & then the Pattern 1859 as smoothbore Enfield "Rifles" for service in India. They decided, after the Mutiny, to always keep the arms of their Indian troops one generation behind those arms of the regular army.
Adrian

Mefidk · 12th August 2012, 09:22 AM

Hi Adrian
That is very interesting, thanks for coming in on this. I've heard this mentioned before. I guess that there may be more to the story in this case though, since this lock on one gun at least dates to before the Indian mutiny (1855 contra 1857). Of course the lock may have been replaced by an earlier one, or maybe there were smooth bore P53s in circulation too. I guess a third possibility could be that rifled early Enfields could have been bored smooth for reissue (if that is technically possible

).
Between the two guns we have quite a selection of military stamps on he barrels. I wonder if you know if there is any way to use these stamps to separate colonial issue guns from the regular army, or provide hints to their history?
Chris

adrian · 12th August 2012, 10:46 AM

The British Govt did not smooth bore rifled guns, so if these are ex Brit Mil barrels the bore out was by a subsequent owner. Best thing would be to post good images of all markings to lock, stock (doubtful that any will still be there) & barrel so we can determine from those what we can. It will entail removing the lock & barrel though to get at all the marks.
Adrian

rickystl · 12th August 2012, 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by adrian

The British Govt did not smooth bore rifled guns, so if these are ex Brit Mil barrels the bore out was by a subsequent owner. Best thing would be to post good images of all markings to lock, stock (doubtful that any will still be there) & barrel so we can determine from those what we can. It will entail removing the lock & barrel though to get at all the marks.
Adrian

Once I receive mine, I'll clean up the lock and barrel and take photos of any markings on the lock and barrel. As you mentioned, there is probably stamps on the bottom of the barrels. But I suspect barrel removal may prove difficult, if not impossible without damaging the stock. That is, if the silver decoration surrounding the barrel is attached with small nails. I'll have to wait till it arrives and decide then. Thanks for your input. Most helpful. Rick.

rickystl · 22nd August 2012, 05:03 PM

Well, I "thought" I was to be the co-owner of the second gun. Our Forum member Mefidk cannot find a way to ship this gun from Denmark to the USA. The laws in Denmark do apparently allow a muzzle loading firearm made before 1880 to be shipped. In spite of this, the local Denmark Postal Service does not want to ship it anyway. Thir own rules. Apparently we can get UPS to ship it - for $580USD!!!!!

Others either don't want to ship it, or want an outragous amount of money to ship it. The situation is even worse for swords or knives.
The irony is that these two guns were shipped to it's current owner in denmark - from Sweden. Apparently, there seems to be no problem shipping these items INTO Denmark, but you can't ship them OUT.

Mefidk has gone above and beyound the call of duty in trying to find a way to ship this gun to me. Thought I would post this story here on the Forum to see if anyone might have a different idea of how to ship this gun to me? Any help much appreciated.

About a year ago I purchased a gun from a fellow Forum member who lives in France. He shipped the antique percussion muzzle loader to me by Postal Service and I received the gun in 5 days!!!

I guess maybe I'm partially "ranting" here. Can't believe the regulations some Countries have on antique weapons. Thanks for reading. Rick.

rickystl · 12th August 2012, 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by adrian

Hi Rick yes the British made the Pattern 1858 & then the Pattern 1859 as smoothbore Enfield "Rifles" for service in India. They decided, after the Mutiny, to always keep the arms of their Indian troops one generation behind those arms of the regular army.
Adrian

Hi Adrian. I thought I read something about this. Thanks!!

7th August 2012, 08:48 PM	#2
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,630	Hello all. Entering this Thread a little late. Full disclosure: I am the new owner of the less decorated gun. And I feel fortunate to have been able to purchase it. These Saudi - Bedouin decorated guns are often hard to come by. Especially when the gun started out as a complete M1853 Enfield. As mentioned above, I am hard pressed to think of a percussion musket more widely used throughout the world as the British Enfield. The gun is on it's way to my house as I write this. Can't wait to see it. Mefidk: Feel free to Post any and all photos desired on the Forum. Apparently, both of these guns have smooth bores vs the .577 rifled barrel. I believe the British did make some M1853 style barrels in smooth bore sent to the Indian continent? But I will try to verify this - maybe on the European Forum? I also seem to recall reading that many barrels in the Eastern continent were re-bored to smooth. The barrels on both of these guns due look genuine British with the exception of the replaced rear sight to suite local tastes. Even the ramrods look correct. Mefidk: Thanks again for your willingness to part with one. I will try to reciprocate at some future point. Rick.

12th August 2012, 08:09 AM	#3
adrian Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 130	Hi Rick yes the British made the Pattern 1858 & then the Pattern 1859 as smoothbore Enfield "Rifles" for service in India. They decided, after the Mutiny, to always keep the arms of their Indian troops one generation behind those arms of the regular army. Adrian

12th August 2012, 09:22 AM	#4
Mefidk Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Denmark Posts: 157	Hi Adrian That is very interesting, thanks for coming in on this. I've heard this mentioned before. I guess that there may be more to the story in this case though, since this lock on one gun at least dates to before the Indian mutiny (1855 contra 1857). Of course the lock may have been replaced by an earlier one, or maybe there were smooth bore P53s in circulation too. I guess a third possibility could be that rifled early Enfields could have been bored smooth for reissue (if that is technically possible ). Between the two guns we have quite a selection of military stamps on he barrels. I wonder if you know if there is any way to use these stamps to separate colonial issue guns from the regular army, or provide hints to their history? Chris

12th August 2012, 10:46 AM	#5
adrian Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 130	The British Govt did not smooth bore rifled guns, so if these are ex Brit Mil barrels the bore out was by a subsequent owner. Best thing would be to post good images of all markings to lock, stock (doubtful that any will still be there) & barrel so we can determine from those what we can. It will entail removing the lock & barrel though to get at all the marks. Adrian

22nd August 2012, 05:03 PM	#7
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,630	Well, I "thought" I was to be the co-owner of the second gun. Our Forum member Mefidk cannot find a way to ship this gun from Denmark to the USA. The laws in Denmark do apparently allow a muzzle loading firearm made before 1880 to be shipped. In spite of this, the local Denmark Postal Service does not want to ship it anyway. Thir own rules. Apparently we can get UPS to ship it - for $580USD!!!!! Others either don't want to ship it, or want an outragous amount of money to ship it. The situation is even worse for swords or knives. The irony is that these two guns were shipped to it's current owner in denmark - from Sweden. Apparently, there seems to be no problem shipping these items INTO Denmark, but you can't ship them OUT. Mefidk has gone above and beyound the call of duty in trying to find a way to ship this gun to me. Thought I would post this story here on the Forum to see if anyone might have a different idea of how to ship this gun to me? Any help much appreciated. About a year ago I purchased a gun from a fellow Forum member who lives in France. He shipped the antique percussion muzzle loader to me by Postal Service and I received the gun in 5 days!!! I guess maybe I'm partially "ranting" here. Can't believe the regulations some Countries have on antique weapons. Thanks for reading. Rick.