Two Arab ex-Enfield Pattern 1853 guns

kahnjar1 · 30th July 2012, 08:39 PM

Not teeth but likely claws---either animal or bird. I once owned a Khyber Jezail which also had these.
Nice guns by the way and I particularly like the more decorated one. In respect of "recycled" British guns and gun parts, it has to be remembered that the British held sway over a very large part of the Middle East and the Indian continent, and the quantity of guns around must have been huge.

Jim McDougall · 31st July 2012, 05:12 PM

Absolutely fascinating examples, and I think these now tribally associated guns are exciting as they were in use over such a long time, even into recent times. As always I am ever interested in the motifs and potential symbolism imbued in the decoration of these. I wonder if the 'claw' representation might be related to the talons of the falcon, I think a well established predator bird in the Arab world.
I am interested in the tacks used in motif as well, and while definitely not suggesting any connection, cannot help noticing the similarity to the decoration found on American Indian guns of the 19th century. I would presume these may be 'furniture' type tacks which were present in trade and 'settler' type situations. It seems that the cross was convergently present in many circumstances and often represents the four cardinal directions, a tribal representation of universal power.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 31st July 2012, 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Absolutely fascinating examples, and I think these now tribally associated guns are exciting as they were in use over such a long time, even into recent times. As always I am ever interested in the motifs and potential symbolism imbued in the decoration of these. I wonder if the 'claw' representation might be related to the talons of the falcon, I think a well established predator bird in the Arab world.
I am interested in the tacks used in motif as well, and while definitely not suggesting any connection, cannot help noticing the similarity to the decoration found on American Indian guns of the 19th century. I would presume these may be 'furniture' type tacks which were present in trade and 'settler' type situations. It seems that the cross was convergently present in many circumstances and often represents the four cardinal directions, a tribal representation of universal power.

Salaams Jim, Tacks were used as ballast in Victorian times on ships bound for India and adorn many artefacts such as chests of furniture ... and in this case guns. Amazing claws in the butt !

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Jim McDougall · 31st July 2012, 06:34 PM

Ouch!!!

claws in the butt!!
Im was hoping you would come in on this Ibrahiim!
Great note on the use of these materials as ballast. Interestingly the enormous volume of the glass beads which became trademark items in American Indian crafts were also ballast material.This again seems to represent the profound use of these otherwise common items from utility to decoration.
I wonder if there are characteristic motif in the decorative bands which might suggest any regional affinity?
Also, were there regions in Arabia which may have had more access to British guns than others? I have always been under the impression that flintlocks and even matchlocks were more prevalent in the more remote Bedouin tribes due to accessibility of ammunition and supplies. As we have discussed, trade from the Indian coastal regions in Sind brought considerable trade weapons to Muscat..perhaps obsolete British guns as well?

All the best,
Jim

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 31st July 2012, 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Ouch!!!

claws in the butt!!
Im was hoping you would come in on this Ibrahiim!
Great note on the use of these materials as ballast. Interestingly the enormous volume of the glass beads which became trademark items in American Indian crafts were also ballast material.This again seems to represent the profound use of these otherwise common items from utility to decoration.
I wonder if there are characteristic motif in the decorative bands which might suggest any regional affinity?
Also, were there regions in Arabia which may have had more access to British guns than others? I have always been under the impression that flintlocks and even matchlocks were more prevalent in the more remote Bedouin tribes due to accessibility of ammunition and supplies. As we have discussed, trade from the Indian coastal regions in Sind brought considerable trade weapons to Muscat..perhaps obsolete British guns as well?

All the best,
Jim

Salaams Jim ~ I think you are correct on all counts however it is a fact that the old and tested systems ruled longest as put by the late Anthony North in his Islamic Arms treatise .. For that reason we still see a lot of abu futtila (the one with the match) matchlock gun barrels though there are a lot of Martini Henrys and Enfields some in very good order... favoured by Palace guards and the various official Muscat gendarmeries often under British control in the late 19th C. The Bedouin preferred Martini Henrys; barrels cut back about a foot removing nicely the bulky bayonet fitting whilst retaining the accuracy(amazingly) and lessening the weight! Ajman and Muscat star highly as import points; therefor in addition to weapons entering the market as palace guards weapons became obsolete(ie their old weapons were sold by the authorities to the souk) Muscat also attracted Martini Henrys, Enfields similar to the ones at thread and the later 303 black powder versions and other marks from all points of the compass.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Jim McDougall · 31st July 2012, 08:06 PM

Thank you so much Ibrahiim, excellent information which gives good perspective on appreciating these ruggedly outstanding guns!

All the best,
Jim

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 1st August 2012, 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Thank you so much Ibrahiim, excellent information which gives good perspective on appreciating these ruggedly outstanding guns!

All the best,
Jim

Salaams Jim ~ Interesting guns. The pin patterns may have some meaning to the originator and certainly on furniture chests there are set patterns so why not on guns?.. I feel that the pins may represent the round ball ammunition. I noticed that on the black weapon forward of the trigger there is a plate resembling a coat of arms and except from this that the two weapons have almost identical markings from the trigger forward. I note a strengthener of different material on the same weapon behind the trigger wrapped round the narrow part of the Butt as it has split previously.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

30th July 2012, 08:39 PM	#1
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,786	Not teeth but likely claws---either animal or bird. I once owned a Khyber Jezail which also had these. Nice guns by the way and I particularly like the more decorated one. In respect of "recycled" British guns and gun parts, it has to be remembered that the British held sway over a very large part of the Middle East and the Indian continent, and the quantity of guns around must have been huge.

31st July 2012, 05:12 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,190	Absolutely fascinating examples, and I think these now tribally associated guns are exciting as they were in use over such a long time, even into recent times. As always I am ever interested in the motifs and potential symbolism imbued in the decoration of these. I wonder if the 'claw' representation might be related to the talons of the falcon, I think a well established predator bird in the Arab world. I am interested in the tacks used in motif as well, and while definitely not suggesting any connection, cannot help noticing the similarity to the decoration found on American Indian guns of the 19th century. I would presume these may be 'furniture' type tacks which were present in trade and 'settler' type situations. It seems that the cross was convergently present in many circumstances and often represents the four cardinal directions, a tribal representation of universal power.

31st July 2012, 06:34 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,190	Ouch!!! claws in the butt!! Im was hoping you would come in on this Ibrahiim! Great note on the use of these materials as ballast. Interestingly the enormous volume of the glass beads which became trademark items in American Indian crafts were also ballast material.This again seems to represent the profound use of these otherwise common items from utility to decoration. I wonder if there are characteristic motif in the decorative bands which might suggest any regional affinity? Also, were there regions in Arabia which may have had more access to British guns than others? I have always been under the impression that flintlocks and even matchlocks were more prevalent in the more remote Bedouin tribes due to accessibility of ammunition and supplies. As we have discussed, trade from the Indian coastal regions in Sind brought considerable trade weapons to Muscat..perhaps obsolete British guns as well? All the best, Jim

31st July 2012, 08:06 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,190	Thank you so much Ibrahiim, excellent information which gives good perspective on appreciating these ruggedly outstanding guns! All the best, Jim