A Good Musketeer's Rapier, Probably Saxony, ca. 1600

[Dmitry]

What makes it a musketeer's rapier, as opposed to a non-musketeer's rapier?

[Matchlock]

Originally Posted by Dmitry

What makes it a musketeer's rapier, as opposed to a non-musketeer's rapier?

Hi Dmitry,

The only differentiation I know is that the shorter rapiers belonged to foot soldiers (calivermen and musketeers) while the longer ones were employed by calvarymen.

Best,
Michael

[Dmitry]

Originally Posted by Matchlock

Hi Dmitry,

The only differentiation I know is that the shorter rapiers belonged to foot soldiers (calivermen and musketeers) while the longer ones were employed by calvarymen.

Best,
Michael

Hi, Michael.
I'm still not convinced that this was a martial sword as opposed to a civilian's personal weapon.
As far as the blade lengths go, in England at least, in the late 1500s-early 1600s the length was regulated to be no more than a yard or so, and swords were randomly measured by government officials in the streets, and blades that were too long were broken short or taken away. I remember reading a period account regarding the French ambassador who got into trouble because his was way too long.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Dmitry

Hi, Michael.
I'm still not convinced that this was a martial sword as opposed to a civilian's personal weapon.
As far as the blade lengths go, in England at least, in the late 1500s-early 1600s the length was regulated to be no more than a yard or so, and swords were randomly measured by government officials in the streets, and blades that were too long were broken short or taken away. I remember reading a period account regarding the French ambassador who got into trouble because his was way too long.

Perhaps one should distinguish civilian swords from munitions swords.
The philosopy applied to their respective blade lengths followed different criteria. Whereas street swords had contextual lengths, military swords had uniformized dimensions and followed the logic of longer for the horseman and shorter for the foot soldier.

[fernando]

Amazing how even specialists are influenced by the charismatic term.
The following is a video link posted by cannonmm in this recent thread .
Despite the background noise, we can clearly hear Mr. Hoover telling the little girl that, the sword he picked up to show her, a typical wide fuelered double edged cuphilt sword is: a Spanish or Italian rapier !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mo8TRPNTvLM


.

[Chris Evans]

Fernando,

I think that it is axiomatic that a sword's type/name is determined by its function rather than its appearance.

In this respect rapiers are rather tricky, because their function is generally poorly understood, yet their appearance overlaps with that of many other swords on account of the elaborate hilt and thrust predisposed blade. So I fear that the practice of calling any sword fitted with a complex hilt or a slim thrusting blade a rapier will be with us for a long time to come.

In any event, there is little logical consistency in how swords types are named, so why do we expect the public at large to adhere to an inadequately defined convention? I mean, "swords" is a class/set that includes all hand held cut&thrust weapons, longer than knives, yet we call what in reality is a short rapier a "small sword" - Now, how irrational is that?

Cheers
Chris

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Chris Evans

... I think that it is axiomatic that a sword's type/name is determined by its function rather than its appearance....

Oh, i have never put it that way. On an instant basis i think of (several)otherwise situations ... if i understand what you mean .

Originally Posted by Chris Evans

... So I fear that the practice of calling any sword fitted with a complex hilt or a slim thrusting blade a rapier will be with us for a long time to come... In any event, there is little logical consistency in how swords types are named, so why do we expect the public at large to adhere to an inadequately defined convention? ...

I am with you Chris but, if you are (also) referring to my post 17#, let me emphasize that the narrator in the video is not properly 'public at large' and the sword he shows has no elaborate hilt but simply and purely a bowl and straight quillons