European Archery/ Agincourt/crecy/etc

Timo Nieminen · 23rd July 2012, 10:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

and how in heck did the 3-6 rpm 50 yd effective musket ever replace this.

Between 2 to 3 mm of iron or unhardened steel armour stops arrows; thinner will suffice if hardened steel. Muskets will punch through that.

Easier to train musketeers. Musketeers can fight when sick and ill-fed, and still shoot musket balls at the same power.

The Russians converted to the musket because muskets were cheaper than bows (they used the Asian composite bow).

The musket's real competitor was the crossbow. In some places (China, Japan, Korea, India) the bow stayed in use alongside the musket.

ashoka · 24th July 2012, 12:18 AM

interesting book Agincourt Juliet Barker. Lots of archery stats leading up to the French Campaign. All able bodied men between 16 and 60 to train with the bow every Sunday or feast day. Those who couldn't fire more than 10 aimed arrows per min not fit for military service, experienced archers could fire up to 25 per min. Average draw weight of English long bow 150-160 lbs and could fire up to 240 yds, up to 150 yards Bodkin heads could go through thick armour fairly easily. Another interesting fact, english yew was way too poor quality to make the better bows, the yew used was imported from Spain, and the Mediterranean. Each archer at Agincourt was issued with between 60 and 72 arrows which would have been loosed within about 7-4 minutes. They had a lot of arrows stockpiled for wars of this sort.. One London fletcher was paid £37 10s (approx £15,500 at todays money) to make 12,000 arrows .. all interesting stuff..

kahnjar1 · 24th July 2012, 12:32 AM

A bit of trivia, and completely ON track here, as when (and if) the French ever captured an English bowman, they cut off his two fingers which drew the bow string. The two fingered sign used today originated from this, as those who still had their fingers intact held them up to show the enemy.............so nothing is new in these modern times.

ashoka · 24th July 2012, 12:38 AM

An even more trivial piece of trivia, the expression to 'keep something under ones hat...' The Genoese mercenary crossbowmen used by the French at Crecy could not fire anything as their bowstrings were shrunk and warped by the torrential rain. English archers had on the other hand developed the crafty habit of keeping their bowstrings tucked away neatly under their hats and helmets thus keeping them dry and servicable..

VANDOO · 24th July 2012, 01:32 AM

A INTERESTING READ IS "THE ARCHERS TALE" BY BERNARD CORNWELL. IT IS HISTORICAL FICTION BUT HAS A LOT OF REAL RESEARCHED INFORMATION AND IS A GOOD STORY IF YOU LIKE TO READ.
THE BOW IS A SERIOUS WEAPON AS WELL AS A VERY GOOD HUNTING WEAPON. SOCIETYS WHO USED THEM A LOT FOR HUNTING USUALLY HAD COMPETICIAN AMONG THE TRIBE SO OFTEN GOT VERY GOOD WITH THEM.
THE PERSIAN EMPIRE HAD ARCHERS FROM SOME ETHINIC GROUP WHO MADE THEM VERY SUCESSFUL. THE ENGLISH LONGBOW WAS ANOTHER EXAMPLE . THE CHINESE USED THEM IN MASS AS THE PERSIANS DID.
BUT ARCHERY FROM HORSEBACK IT WAS EITHER THE MONGOLS OR THE AMERICAN INDIANS WHO WERE THE MASTERS. THE JAPANESE ALSO DO A GOOD JOB FROM HORSEBACK AS WELL.

trenchwarfare · 24th July 2012, 05:06 AM

Most of the "English" bowmen, were actually Welsh. They started at the age of five. Once they reached manhood, the usual practice range was 200 yards. Their arrows, were a "clotheyard" long, and drawn fully to the ear. Reportedly, they were known to penetrate through a 4" oak door. As late as WWI, it was argued as to whether issue rifles, or longbows. And, early in WWII, longbows were issued to Homeguard personnel, to hunt for possible German invaders. Or, so I have read.

ashoka · 24th July 2012, 07:34 AM

Yep those oak doors didn't stand a chance on the battlefield..

Atlantia · 25th July 2012, 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trenchwarfare

Most of the "English" bowmen, were actually Welsh. They started at the age of five. Once they reached manhood, the usual practice range was 200 yards. Their arrows, were a "clotheyard" long, and drawn fully to the ear. Reportedly, they were known to penetrate through a 4" oak door. As late as WWI, it was argued as to whether issue rifles, or longbows. And, early in WWII, longbows were issued to Homeguard personnel, to hunt for possible German invaders. Or, so I have read.

I have a friend who is really into traditional archery. Solid little treetrunk of a chap, about 5'5" looks just like Gimli from LOTR. He says that at about that range he expects to be able hit a bail of hay sized target, with luck a torso sized one.
OK, thats a stationary target, but it shows how with some judgement these guys would quickly cause pandemonium amongst the ranks of their attackers.

David · 25th July 2012, 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

A bit of trivia, and completely ON track here, as when (and if) the French ever captured an English bowman, they cut off his two fingers which drew the bow string. The two fingered sign used today originated from this, as those who still had their fingers intact held them up to show the enemy.............so nothing is new in these modern times.

For what it is worth this legend has been discounted by Snopes. Much of what they say coincides with the video that Chris has posted. Can anyone provide any actual evidence to this tale?
http://www.snopes.com/language/apocryph/pluckyew.asp

24th July 2012, 12:32 AM	#3
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,810	Ancient origins of a modern day rude sign A bit of trivia, and completely ON track here, as when (and if) the French ever captured an English bowman, they cut off his two fingers which drew the bow string. The two fingered sign used today originated from this, as those who still had their fingers intact held them up to show the enemy.............so nothing is new in these modern times.

24th July 2012, 12:18 AM	#2
ashoka Member Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 61	interesting book Agincourt Juliet Barker. Lots of archery stats leading up to the French Campaign. All able bodied men between 16 and 60 to train with the bow every Sunday or feast day. Those who couldn't fire more than 10 aimed arrows per min not fit for military service, experienced archers could fire up to 25 per min. Average draw weight of English long bow 150-160 lbs and could fire up to 240 yds, up to 150 yards Bodkin heads could go through thick armour fairly easily. Another interesting fact, english yew was way too poor quality to make the better bows, the yew used was imported from Spain, and the Mediterranean. Each archer at Agincourt was issued with between 60 and 72 arrows which would have been loosed within about 7-4 minutes. They had a lot of arrows stockpiled for wars of this sort.. One London fletcher was paid £37 10s (approx £15,500 at todays money) to make 12,000 arrows .. all interesting stuff..

24th July 2012, 12:38 AM	#4
ashoka Member Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 61	An even more trivial piece of trivia, the expression to 'keep something under ones hat...' The Genoese mercenary crossbowmen used by the French at Crecy could not fire anything as their bowstrings were shrunk and warped by the torrential rain. English archers had on the other hand developed the crafty habit of keeping their bowstrings tucked away neatly under their hats and helmets thus keeping them dry and servicable..

24th July 2012, 01:32 AM	#5
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	A INTERESTING READ IS "THE ARCHERS TALE" BY BERNARD CORNWELL. IT IS HISTORICAL FICTION BUT HAS A LOT OF REAL RESEARCHED INFORMATION AND IS A GOOD STORY IF YOU LIKE TO READ. THE BOW IS A SERIOUS WEAPON AS WELL AS A VERY GOOD HUNTING WEAPON. SOCIETYS WHO USED THEM A LOT FOR HUNTING USUALLY HAD COMPETICIAN AMONG THE TRIBE SO OFTEN GOT VERY GOOD WITH THEM. THE PERSIAN EMPIRE HAD ARCHERS FROM SOME ETHINIC GROUP WHO MADE THEM VERY SUCESSFUL. THE ENGLISH LONGBOW WAS ANOTHER EXAMPLE . THE CHINESE USED THEM IN MASS AS THE PERSIANS DID. BUT ARCHERY FROM HORSEBACK IT WAS EITHER THE MONGOLS OR THE AMERICAN INDIANS WHO WERE THE MASTERS. THE JAPANESE ALSO DO A GOOD JOB FROM HORSEBACK AS WELL.

24th July 2012, 05:06 AM	#6
trenchwarfare Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 385	Most of the "English" bowmen, were actually Welsh. They started at the age of five. Once they reached manhood, the usual practice range was 200 yards. Their arrows, were a "clotheyard" long, and drawn fully to the ear. Reportedly, they were known to penetrate through a 4" oak door. As late as WWI, it was argued as to whether issue rifles, or longbows. And, early in WWII, longbows were issued to Homeguard personnel, to hunt for possible German invaders. Or, so I have read.

24th July 2012, 07:34 AM	#7
ashoka Member Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 61	Yep those oak doors didn't stand a chance on the battlefield..