Kris handles showing royal 'mascots'?

David · 2nd July 2012, 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cinna

Your forum has just one 'hunchbacked kris' example that I've found. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...3&postcount=37
To my unpracticed eye, it looks like Twalen/Semar.
If anyone has images to share of a dwarf on a kris hilt, please tell me where to find the image(s), or post a photo if you can. What makes you think it's a dwarf? Thanks for your consideration, CINNA

What makes you think that this hilt example is "hunchbacked" (other than the title of the thread which i find misleading). The figure is bent forward, but this seems more a matter of posture than deformity.
I have also never heard Twalen or Semar described as hunchbacked. He is not exactly an attractive fellow, and is known for his bulging rear end and belly, but this seems to be more obesity than deformity. What's more, Twalen/Semar are characters of classic and epic mythological story telling. They (and their counter-parts) should not be confused with actual members of court. Wayang characters have often be used in figurative keris hilts, but that is not the same as depicting real dwarves, hunchbacks or other deformed humans who may or may not have been present in the actual courts of some Indonesian kingdoms.
I am always amazed at the diversity of hilt forms throughout the Indonesian Archipelago, but i have not witnessed the kind of deformity of which you speak in keris hilts. Often we do see figures in somewhat distorted body postures, bent forward or squatting, but i do not recall actual deformed figures in an common form. Demons are common, with bulging eyes and fangs. Various Hindu gods appear on Balinese keris. Still, new forms come to light regularly. The bottom line though is that this is not the norm for figural keris hilts, so even if we were to find the oddity i do wonder what you are trying to determine by this line of inquiry. If someone were to come up with a figural hilt that depicted a dwarf, what would this tell you about keris or the specific Indonesian culture that hilt originated in?
I am also curious if your article goes into any further detail to discuss time frame or which specific kingdoms in Jawa or Southwest Sulawesi they are writing about. There were many over the centuries. What Hindus in general believe about dwarves may have little to do with what the cultures of Jawa and Sulawesi thought, especially after the 15th century when these areas converted to Islam. The use of figurative hilts went into decline at this point in adherence to Islamic law. You may do better to look more to Bali than these other areas of Indonesia where Hinduism remained after the general switch to Islam by other Indonesian kingdoms. Still, i can't think of any Balinese form i have seen that could be called a dwarf per se.

VANDOO · 3rd July 2012, 04:41 AM

YOU MAY FIND THE INFORMATION YOU ARE LOOKING FOR EITHER IN THE HISTORY OF THE OLD KINGDOMS OR HINDU LEGENDS AND RELIGIOUS BELIEFS. BUT I TEND TO AGREE WITH JIM AND RICK THAT THE KERIS HANDLES I AM FAMILIAR WITH TEND TO REPRESENT HINDU GODS IN ONE OF THEIR VARIOUS ASPECTS OR WAYANG CHARACTERS MOST OF WHICH ARE ALSO GODS OR BEINGS WITH SUPERNATURAL POWERS. THE HORSE SHOWS UP USUALLY IN ABSTRACT FORM AS DO GOD FIGURES DUE TO ISLAMIC LAW. SO ITS LIKELY ACTUAL LIVING PEOPLE UNLESS THEY WERE CONSIDERED DIETYS WILL NOT APPEAR ON TRADITIONAL HANDLES. BUT WHO KNOWS WHAT MIGHT APPEAR ON A FANTASY KERIS HANDLE IF SUCH ARE BEING MADE PERHAPS BATMAN, ECT.

THE KEEPING OF HUMAN ODDITIES IN HIGH COURTS WAS WIDE SPREAD FROM EUROPE, ASIA , THE ORIENT AND ANCIENT AMERICAN CIVILIZATIONS. OFTEN THERE IS A BELIEF OF A CONNECTION BETWEEN THE UN-NATURAL AND SUPERNATURAL. SOMETIMES THESE UNFORTUNATE PEOPLE ARE RESPECTED AND CONSIDERED GOOD LUCK AND OTHER TIMES EVIL AND ARE DESTROYED OR DRIVEN OUT. GOOD LUCK ON YOUR QUEST.

Cinna · 3rd July 2012, 02:45 PM

What makes you think that this hilt example is "hunchbacked" (other than the title of the thread which i find misleading). The figure is bent forward, but this seems more a matter of posture than deformity. I have also never heard Twalen or Semar described as hunchbacked. [ . . .] They (and their counter-parts) should not be confused with actual members of court.

David, thanks for your informative post. I'm quoting your post throughout this, in black. It's one of your own forum experts who identified the character on this hilt as 'hunchbacked', rather than I myself. Sorry my citing this posted example from the forum is irritating, and that you think it is misidentified is good information for me. I guess nothing was said at the time that the title might be thought to be misleading (?). And I did not mean to imply that I think that Twalen/Semar is hunchbacked at all; I merely said that to my unpracticed eye, that particular hilt seemed like it might be meant to show Twalen or Semar. Does anyone else think of Semar?

Wayang characters have often be used in figurative keris hilts, but that is not the same as depicting real dwarves, hunchbacks or other deformed humans who may or may not have been present in the actual courts of some Indonesian kingdoms.

I agree.

I am always amazed at the diversity of hilt forms throughout the Indonesian Archipelago [. . . ] If someone were to come up with a figural hilt that depicted a dwarf, what would this tell you about keris or the specific Indonesian culture that hilt originated in?

If I found some hilt(s) depicting a dwarf, I would try to understand whether the subject(s) seemed to be mythological being(s), or something else, and about the specific history. But of course, if the category of dwarf does not exist within kris hilts (as your post later suggests) the line of inquiry will be unproductive.

I am also curious if your article goes into any further detail to discuss time frame or which specific kingdoms in Jawa or Southwest Sulawesi they are writing about. There were many over the centuries. What Hindus in general believe about dwarves may have little to do with what the cultures of Jawa and Sulawesi thought, especially after the 15th century when these areas converted to Islam. The use of figurative hilts went into decline at this point in adherence to Islamic law.

Majapahit period, before the major Islamic wave. But conversion in Indonesia (at least to Islam or forms of Christianity) is sometimes just a 'new frosting' on the 'old cake'. Even in the 20th century some branches of the royal Central Javanese bloodlines and their retainers retained Hindu practices despite outwardly conforming to Moslem expectations.

You may do better to look more to Bali than these other areas of Indonesia where Hinduism remained after the general switch to Islam by other Indonesian kingdoms.

Yes, I agree.
I'll get to the Neka Museum's collection, see if I can meet someone knowledgeable about that collection. . FYI, reputable kris dealers in Bali sometimes offer beautifully carved modern kris hilts made in Madura, in my experience one of the most conservative Moslem areas, showing Semar or raksasas, etc., so in recent years, some Moslem wood carvers apparently do not wholly avoid figural carvings if there's a market for elegant reproductions.

Still, i can't think of any Balinese form i have seen that could be called a dwarf per se.

Thanks for this information. Looks like this form of question may be a dead end.

Let me heat things up, then, by changing my question, then, to speculative zoology: does anyone think that some version of orang pendek was ever shown on a kris hilt? orang pendek literally means 'short person' in Indonesian, a crypto-zoologic primate supposedly (still) living in the deep mountain forests of Sumatra. Some orang pendek researchers think orang pendek (if it exists) will turn out to be a homo sapiens dwarf or a pygmy, some think it will be a new species of primate, others think it will be a hominid or form of homo (such as homo floresiensis, the so-called Flores 'hobbit'). If orang pendek does exist still in Sumatra, then possibly some of the unusual beings collected as living regalia by pre-modern courts___m i g h t __ b e ___ orang pendek, not always just human dwarfs. We do not know if homo floresiensis was hairy or not, so the figure might be hirsute or smooth. So, if we don't have dwarfs per se, do we possibly see questionable (non-Ramayana) primates depicted on a kris hilt? Please excuse in advance if this question is irritating or inappropriate for your forum. I am just hoping for information. — CINNA

David · 3rd July 2012, 05:11 PM

Sorry my citing this posted example from the forum is irritating, and that you think it is misidentified is good information for me. I guess nothing was said at the time that the title might be thought to be misleading (?). And I did not mean to imply that I think that Twalen/Semar is hunchbacked at all; I merely said that to my unpracticed eye, that particular hilt seemed like it might be meant to show Twalen or Semar. Does anyone else think of Semar?

But conversion in Indonesia (at least to Islam or forms of Christianity) is sometimes just a 'new frosting' on the 'old cake'. Even in the 20th century some branches of the royal Central Javanese bloodlines and their retainers retained Hindu practices despite outwardly conforming to Moslem expectations.
[/QUOTE]
You citing was not "irritating" Cinna, but i do still think it was a misleading remark on the original poster's part. Just for the record, NONE of us here are experts in this field. Some are more informed than others, but we all have much to learn.
What you say about Jawa after the conversion is, of course, correct. There is also quite a bite of pre-Hindu animistic belief left around as well.
The closest thing to primates i have seen on a keris hilt would be depiction of Hanuman, who while monkey-like, can not really be called a primate.

VANDOO · 3rd July 2012, 05:36 PM

AH HA! A CHANCE FOR MY SPECIALITY CONJECTURE

MANY STORIES STARTED BEFORE HISTORY AND WERE ONLY PRESENT IN ORAL TRADITIONAL STORIES. THESE ARE EMBELLISHED OVER THE CENTURIES SO IT IS POSSIBLE HANUMAN MAY NOT BE BASED ON MONKEYS BUT ON EARLY HONINIDS LIVING DURING THOSE TIMES. IF THEY WERE INTELLEGENT THEY MAY BE IN HIDEING FROM THEIR VERY AGRESSIVE AND SAVAGE CUZINS. IF NOT INTELLEGENT THEY ARE LIKELY EXTINCT AND LIVE TODAY ONLY IN LEGENDS AND STUDIES OF OLD BONES.

A. G. Maisey · 3rd July 2012, 11:26 PM

Cinna, the original "hunchback" post was made by a gentleman with the ID of "Ganjawulung".

This gentleman is not a native English speaker, but he is a very educated and widely traveled man, note that he placed "hunchback of Java" in inverted commas. Such usage in written English can be taken to mean that he is alluding to something other than a literal interpretation of the phrase. In fact, I feel he may have been drawing a parallel with "the Hunchback of Notre Dame" and creating a visual joke.

In traditional Javanese and Balinese figural hilts, the purpose is most likely as a protective figure --- ancestor as a god, wayang character, actual god, etc. Usage of such figural iconology was available to all people within the community.

The dwarfs kept in the past by Javanese, and perhaps other South East Asian rulers were a royal attribute, as such it would be unfitting for the general populace to use such figures as keris hilts. I myself cannot recall ever having seen a Javanese, nor a Balinese, keris hilt that could reliably be identified as a representation of a dwarf or some unusually formed person.

During the PBX era in Surakarta, there was a fad for the creation of figural keris hilts as miniature sculptures that were displayed as cabinet pieces. Perhaps they may have occasionally been used as keris hilts at times of freedom from dress rules --- picnics and such --- but the very strict requirements of dress within a Javanese kraton hierarchy would have prevented a figural hilt form such as were produced for cabinet display from ever being used by the only people who could use them, that is, members of the upper levels of the kraton hierarchy.

When we consider questions such as you have raised here, it is important to recognise the place within society that the keris occupies, and its purpose. It is not simply a decorative item, nor an item of dress. It is subject to quite strict rules.

Cinna · 4th July 2012, 02:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Ganjawulung" [ . . . ] may have been drawing a parallel with "the Hunchback of Notre Dame" and creating a visual joke..

I agree.

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

The dwarfs kept in the past by Javanese, and perhaps other South East Asian rulers were a royal attribute, as such it would be unfitting for the general populace to use such figures as keris hilts. [ . . . ] the very strict requirements of dress within a Javanese kraton hierarchy would have prevented a figural hilt form such as were produced for cabinet display from ever being used by the only people who could use them, that is, members of the upper levels of the kraton hierarchy.

This is fascinating information, many thanks! - Cinna

Cinna · 4th July 2012, 02:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VANDOO

AH HA! A CHANCE FOR MY SPECIALITY CONJECTURE

MANY STORIES STARTED BEFORE HISTORY AND WERE ONLY PRESENT IN ORAL TRADITIONAL STORIES. THESE ARE EMBELLISHED OVER THE CENTURIES SO IT IS POSSIBLE HANUMAN MAY NOT BE BASED ON MONKEYS BUT ON EARLY HONINIDS LIVING DURING THOSE TIMES. IF THEY WERE INTELLEGENT THEY MAY BE IN HIDEING FROM THEIR VERY AGRESSIVE AND SAVAGE CUZINS. IF NOT INTELLEGENT THEY ARE LIKELY EXTINCT AND LIVE TODAY ONLY IN LEGENDS AND STUDIES OF OLD BONES.

Hi Vandoo — I like how your mind is working on this question. Yes, more things are possible than we currently have hard evidence for, and we should stay open if possible. . . Cinna

David · 4th July 2012, 12:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

You citing was not "irritating" Cinna, but i do still think it was a misleading remark on the original poster's part. Just for the record, NONE of us here are experts in this field. Some are more informed than others, but we all have much to learn.

After reading Alan's remark i realized that the way i placed these 2 sentences together might imply that i though might have thought that Ganjawulung was "wrong" and somehow less informed than others. I want to assure everyone, especially Ganja, that it was not my intention at all and i probably should have started a new paragraph for this second sentence which i did not intend to relate directly to the first. Ganja is indeed a very well educated man and i believe the intention that Alan mentions was no doubt what Ganja's reference was about. Please forgive me if yo took offense Ganja.

tunggulametung · 4th July 2012, 07:38 AM

I just want to add to this interesting discussion that in Indonesian keris society the typical 'raksasa' Cirebon hilt were called 'buta bajang' which means dwarf giant(?)/raksasa. But as Alan mention somewhere on the other thread, they might represent several characters (I think Jagal Abilawa/Bilawa/Bima, Rajamala, dwarapala-at least his posture as a guard- etc) to which I'm agree.

Specific to Semar/Smara/Smarasanta he is an avatar of Sanghyang (God) Ismaya, other punakawan Bagong is (made of) his shadow. Semar is like yin-yang symbol in Chinese philosophy, or kain poleng (checkered cloth in Bali) not good looking but is wise/powerful (God), a male but has breast, old looking but has a child hairdo, sad eyes but always smiling etc. Gareng & petruk got their appearance from a fight between them (previously good looking). I don't know how old these character is started to be used as keris hilt, but I don't think it is 'traditional'/very old practice.

Cinna · 3rd July 2012, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VANDOO

YOU MAY FIND THE INFORMATION YOU ARE LOOKING FOR EITHER IN THE HISTORY OF THE OLD KINGDOMS OR HINDU LEGENDS AND RELIGIOUS BELIEFS. BUT I TEND TO AGREE WITH JIM AND RICK THAT THE KERIS HANDLES I AM FAMILIAR WITH TEND TO REPRESENT HINDU GODS IN ONE OF THEIR VARIOUS ASPECTS OR WAYANG CHARACTERS MOST OF WHICH ARE ALSO GODS OR BEINGS WITH SUPERNATURAL POWERS.

Thanks, Vandoo, for this. . .

Quote:

Originally Posted by VANDOO

THE KEEPING OF HUMAN ODDITIES IN HIGH COURTS WAS WIDE SPREAD FROM EUROPE, ASIA , THE ORIENT AND ANCIENT AMERICAN CIVILIZATIONS. OFTEN THERE IS A BELIEF OF A CONNECTION BETWEEN THE UN-NATURAL AND SUPERNATURAL. GOOD LUCK ON YOUR QUEST.

I agree. The practice was quite widespread. Controlling whatever is truly rare and curious is still a preoccupation of some who are wealthy . . . .

I want to thank those who have responded so far to this thread. It helps get me calibrated to hear your thoughts. . .

— Cinna

3rd July 2012, 02:45 PM	#3
Cinna Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: U. S. A. and Bali, Indonesia Posts: 6	a long reply quoting David - and a new question What makes you think that this hilt example is "hunchbacked" (other than the title of the thread which i find misleading). The figure is bent forward, but this seems more a matter of posture than deformity. I have also never heard Twalen or Semar described as hunchbacked. [ . . .] They (and their counter-parts) should not be confused with actual members of court. David, thanks for your informative post. I'm quoting your post throughout this, in black. It's one of your own forum experts who identified the character on this hilt as 'hunchbacked', rather than I myself. Sorry my citing this posted example from the forum is irritating, and that you think it is misidentified is good information for me. I guess nothing was said at the time that the title might be thought to be misleading (?). And I did not mean to imply that I think that Twalen/Semar is hunchbacked at all; I merely said that to my unpracticed eye, that particular hilt seemed like it might be meant to show Twalen or Semar. Does anyone else think of Semar? Wayang characters have often be used in figurative keris hilts, but that is not the same as depicting real dwarves, hunchbacks or other deformed humans who may or may not have been present in the actual courts of some Indonesian kingdoms. I agree. I am always amazed at the diversity of hilt forms throughout the Indonesian Archipelago [. . . ] If someone were to come up with a figural hilt that depicted a dwarf, what would this tell you about keris or the specific Indonesian culture that hilt originated in? If I found some hilt(s) depicting a dwarf, I would try to understand whether the subject(s) seemed to be mythological being(s), or something else, and about the specific history. But of course, if the category of dwarf does not exist within kris hilts (as your post later suggests) the line of inquiry will be unproductive. I am also curious if your article goes into any further detail to discuss time frame or which specific kingdoms in Jawa or Southwest Sulawesi they are writing about. There were many over the centuries. What Hindus in general believe about dwarves may have little to do with what the cultures of Jawa and Sulawesi thought, especially after the 15th century when these areas converted to Islam. The use of figurative hilts went into decline at this point in adherence to Islamic law. Majapahit period, before the major Islamic wave. But conversion in Indonesia (at least to Islam or forms of Christianity) is sometimes just a 'new frosting' on the 'old cake'. Even in the 20th century some branches of the royal Central Javanese bloodlines and their retainers retained Hindu practices despite outwardly conforming to Moslem expectations. You may do better to look more to Bali than these other areas of Indonesia where Hinduism remained after the general switch to Islam by other Indonesian kingdoms. Yes, I agree. I'll get to the Neka Museum's collection, see if I can meet someone knowledgeable about that collection. . FYI, reputable kris dealers in Bali sometimes offer beautifully carved modern kris hilts made in Madura, in my experience one of the most conservative Moslem areas, showing Semar or raksasas, etc., so in recent years, some Moslem wood carvers apparently do not wholly avoid figural carvings if there's a market for elegant reproductions. Still, i can't think of any Balinese form i have seen that could be called a dwarf per se. Thanks for this information. Looks like this form of question may be a dead end. Let me heat things up, then, by changing my question, then, to speculative zoology: does anyone think that some version of orang pendek was ever shown on a kris hilt? orang pendek literally means 'short person' in Indonesian, a crypto-zoologic primate supposedly (still) living in the deep mountain forests of Sumatra. Some orang pendek researchers think orang pendek (if it exists) will turn out to be a homo sapiens dwarf or a pygmy, some think it will be a new species of primate, others think it will be a hominid or form of homo (such as homo floresiensis, the so-called Flores 'hobbit'). If orang pendek does exist still in Sumatra, then possibly some of the unusual beings collected as living regalia by pre-modern courts___m i g h t __ b e ___ orang pendek, not always just human dwarfs. We do not know if homo floresiensis was hairy or not, so the figure might be hirsute or smooth. So, if we don't have dwarfs per se, do we possibly see questionable (non-Ramayana) primates depicted on a kris hilt? Please excuse in advance if this question is irritating or inappropriate for your forum. I am just hoping for information. — CINNA

3rd July 2012, 11:26 PM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,990	Cinna, the original "hunchback" post was made by a gentleman with the ID of "Ganjawulung". This gentleman is not a native English speaker, but he is a very educated and widely traveled man, note that he placed "hunchback of Java" in inverted commas. Such usage in written English can be taken to mean that he is alluding to something other than a literal interpretation of the phrase. In fact, I feel he may have been drawing a parallel with "the Hunchback of Notre Dame" and creating a visual joke. In traditional Javanese and Balinese figural hilts, the purpose is most likely as a protective figure --- ancestor as a god, wayang character, actual god, etc. Usage of such figural iconology was available to all people within the community. The dwarfs kept in the past by Javanese, and perhaps other South East Asian rulers were a royal attribute, as such it would be unfitting for the general populace to use such figures as keris hilts. I myself cannot recall ever having seen a Javanese, nor a Balinese, keris hilt that could reliably be identified as a representation of a dwarf or some unusually formed person. During the PBX era in Surakarta, there was a fad for the creation of figural keris hilts as miniature sculptures that were displayed as cabinet pieces. Perhaps they may have occasionally been used as keris hilts at times of freedom from dress rules --- picnics and such --- but the very strict requirements of dress within a Javanese kraton hierarchy would have prevented a figural hilt form such as were produced for cabinet display from ever being used by the only people who could use them, that is, members of the upper levels of the kraton hierarchy. When we consider questions such as you have raised here, it is important to recognise the place within society that the keris occupies, and its purpose. It is not simply a decorative item, nor an item of dress. It is subject to quite strict rules. Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 3rd July 2012 at 11:49 PM.

3rd July 2012, 04:41 AM	#2
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	YOU MAY FIND THE INFORMATION YOU ARE LOOKING FOR EITHER IN THE HISTORY OF THE OLD KINGDOMS OR HINDU LEGENDS AND RELIGIOUS BELIEFS. BUT I TEND TO AGREE WITH JIM AND RICK THAT THE KERIS HANDLES I AM FAMILIAR WITH TEND TO REPRESENT HINDU GODS IN ONE OF THEIR VARIOUS ASPECTS OR WAYANG CHARACTERS MOST OF WHICH ARE ALSO GODS OR BEINGS WITH SUPERNATURAL POWERS. THE HORSE SHOWS UP USUALLY IN ABSTRACT FORM AS DO GOD FIGURES DUE TO ISLAMIC LAW. SO ITS LIKELY ACTUAL LIVING PEOPLE UNLESS THEY WERE CONSIDERED DIETYS WILL NOT APPEAR ON TRADITIONAL HANDLES. BUT WHO KNOWS WHAT MIGHT APPEAR ON A FANTASY KERIS HANDLE IF SUCH ARE BEING MADE PERHAPS BATMAN, ECT. THE KEEPING OF HUMAN ODDITIES IN HIGH COURTS WAS WIDE SPREAD FROM EUROPE, ASIA , THE ORIENT AND ANCIENT AMERICAN CIVILIZATIONS. OFTEN THERE IS A BELIEF OF A CONNECTION BETWEEN THE UN-NATURAL AND SUPERNATURAL. SOMETIMES THESE UNFORTUNATE PEOPLE ARE RESPECTED AND CONSIDERED GOOD LUCK AND OTHER TIMES EVIL AND ARE DESTROYED OR DRIVEN OUT. GOOD LUCK ON YOUR QUEST.

3rd July 2012, 05:11 PM	#4
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	Sorry my citing this posted example from the forum is irritating, and that you think it is misidentified is good information for me. I guess nothing was said at the time that the title might be thought to be misleading (?). And I did not mean to imply that I think that Twalen/Semar is hunchbacked at all; I merely said that to my unpracticed eye, that particular hilt seemed like it might be meant to show Twalen or Semar. Does anyone else think of Semar? But conversion in Indonesia (at least to Islam or forms of Christianity) is sometimes just a 'new frosting' on the 'old cake'. Even in the 20th century some branches of the royal Central Javanese bloodlines and their retainers retained Hindu practices despite outwardly conforming to Moslem expectations. [/QUOTE] You citing was not "irritating" Cinna, but i do still think it was a misleading remark on the original poster's part. Just for the record, NONE of us here are experts in this field. Some are more informed than others, but we all have much to learn. What you say about Jawa after the conversion is, of course, correct. There is also quite a bite of pre-Hindu animistic belief left around as well. The closest thing to primates i have seen on a keris hilt would be depiction of Hanuman, who while monkey-like, can not really be called a primate.

3rd July 2012, 05:36 PM	#5
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	AH HA! A CHANCE FOR MY SPECIALITY CONJECTURE MANY STORIES STARTED BEFORE HISTORY AND WERE ONLY PRESENT IN ORAL TRADITIONAL STORIES. THESE ARE EMBELLISHED OVER THE CENTURIES SO IT IS POSSIBLE HANUMAN MAY NOT BE BASED ON MONKEYS BUT ON EARLY HONINIDS LIVING DURING THOSE TIMES. IF THEY WERE INTELLEGENT THEY MAY BE IN HIDEING FROM THEIR VERY AGRESSIVE AND SAVAGE CUZINS. IF NOT INTELLEGENT THEY ARE LIKELY EXTINCT AND LIVE TODAY ONLY IN LEGENDS AND STUDIES OF OLD BONES.

4th July 2012, 07:38 AM	#10
tunggulametung Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 238	I just want to add to this interesting discussion that in Indonesian keris society the typical 'raksasa' Cirebon hilt were called 'buta bajang' which means dwarf giant(?)/raksasa. But as Alan mention somewhere on the other thread, they might represent several characters (I think Jagal Abilawa/Bilawa/Bima, Rajamala, dwarapala-at least his posture as a guard- etc) to which I'm agree. Specific to Semar/Smara/Smarasanta he is an avatar of Sanghyang (God) Ismaya, other punakawan Bagong is (made of) his shadow. Semar is like yin-yang symbol in Chinese philosophy, or kain poleng (checkered cloth in Bali) not good looking but is wise/powerful (God), a male but has breast, old looking but has a child hairdo, sad eyes but always smiling etc. Gareng & petruk got their appearance from a fight between them (previously good looking). I don't know how old these character is started to be used as keris hilt, but I don't think it is 'traditional'/very old practice.