Sele from Makassar (Keris Bugis)

kai · 6th September 2005, 01:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alam Shah

This is just a guess. For a keris to be used for a boy or woman, it would be cheaper to do the modification from an existing blade than commissioning a new piece (a patrem).

This would be a severe breach of rule #1: Never cheap out on your wife...

What I meant though: Why would one want to narrow down the original luks and thereby messing with the pamor miring instead of just shortening the blade?

Regards,
Kai

Alam Shah · 6th September 2005, 04:23 AM

I guess, smaller blade is easier to conceal and use, for women (or men), in close quarters engagement. That's what patrems are for.

kai · 6th September 2005, 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alam Shah

I guess, smaller blade is easier to conceal and use, for women (or men), in close quarters engagement. That's what patrems are for.

Yup, that's why I compared it to a Moro gunong.

However, I still don't see why it would be preferable (from a functional POV) to "smooth out" the originally broader luk since the total width of the blade doesn't seem limiting to me. If a more slender blade is the main goal, just grind off both edges equally (following the pamor) and, thus, preserve the original shape/proportions. So, is the actually seen change of blade proportions/design some sort of traditional dapur "requirement" for keris Jawa? Of course, it's much easier to rework a pamor mlumah (tiban) blade but I have problems to imagine that a bladesmith would compromise a nice pamor miring for anything but a very good reason... Any ideas?

Regards,
Kai

Alam Shah · 6th September 2005, 04:12 PM

Beats me?

I don't know why it is done that way. Only assumptions.
The outer part of the luks are more prone to rust and corrosion. It might be a reason. Just guessing.

Henk · 6th September 2005, 07:21 PM

Kai,

I'm not very good on wood species. Certainly not from pictures. I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out to be a sheath made by someone who isn't a sheathcarver at all. Maybe the previous european owner. The form is a walikat sandang but not very elegant as a walikat sandang should be. It could be very well made of pine wood. In that case my theorie could come very close to the truth.

The blade could be shortenend very well. There are some signs to it. The proportions of the prabot are to big for the length of the blade. And the blade is to broad in comparison to its length

kai · 11th July 2007, 10:13 PM

Hello Henk,

Sorry for forgetting to answer!

Quote:

I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out to be a sheath made by someone who isn't a sheathcarver at all. Maybe the previous european owner.

Yes, I agree that the scabbard is badly/sloppily done. However, the former owner still resides in Indonesia and it wouldn't make any sense to obtain/use European pine wood when decent woods can be easily obtained locally...

Quote:

The blade could be shortenend very well. There are some signs to it. The proportions of the prabot are to big for the length of the blade. And the blade is to broad in comparison to its length

Exactly. I'm sure that the blade was redone (and shortened). I'm still wondering about the style in which this was done though. It seems to be off for any aesthetic standards on Jawa AFAIK. It seems a bit closer to the macho-esque appearance of many Sulawesi keris blades though...

Any other insights from our friends experienced in things Jawa (or Sulawesi!)? Thanks!

Regards,
Kai

possum · 13th July 2007, 12:38 PM

looks like the blade, the hilt, hilt cup and the sheath are from different origins. from the photos ... looks like the sheath should be bigger than the one you have, the hilt should be smaller.

keris bugis is definitely not .... it is extremely rare for a keris to be "lok 3". usually keris lok 3 is used by womens. it is easier to conceal them.

sometime keris lok 3 is being used as a house for the spirits or khadams to protect the owner of the keris.

6th September 2005, 04:23 AM	#2
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	stealth use... I guess, smaller blade is easier to conceal and use, for women (or men), in close quarters engagement. That's what patrems are for.

13th July 2007, 12:38 PM	#7
possum Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 1	kai looks like the blade, the hilt, hilt cup and the sheath are from different origins. from the photos ... looks like the sheath should be bigger than the one you have, the hilt should be smaller. keris bugis is definitely not .... it is extremely rare for a keris to be "lok 3". usually keris lok 3 is used by womens. it is easier to conceal them. sometime keris lok 3 is being used as a house for the spirits or khadams to protect the owner of the keris.

6th September 2005, 04:12 PM	#4
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	Beats me? I don't know why it is done that way. Only assumptions. The outer part of the luks are more prone to rust and corrosion. It might be a reason. Just guessing.

6th September 2005, 07:21 PM	#5
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Kai, I'm not very good on wood species. Certainly not from pictures. I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out to be a sheath made by someone who isn't a sheathcarver at all. Maybe the previous european owner. The form is a walikat sandang but not very elegant as a walikat sandang should be. It could be very well made of pine wood. In that case my theorie could come very close to the truth. The blade could be shortenend very well. There are some signs to it. The proportions of the prabot are to big for the length of the blade. And the blade is to broad in comparison to its length