My first kaskara

Jim McDougall · 25th June 2012, 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

Very beautiful Kaskara big congratulations! :-)

Interesting, Jim. I always read that as '2' but it could be the Arabic 'ha ح' which is not far fetched as the letter ha is frequent in the Qur'an as part of the letters which many surah's begin with like " ha mim" etc

Thank you Lofty. Why would the 'ha' be placed in singulars in a paired configuration though. While it is as you note part of the cursive script in the wording, what kind of meaning would it have standing alone?
I think you mean the Letter on the embossed crocodile scabbard is the one representing Allah, correct?

I agree Iain, but I could not see the ricasso or whats left of it, and with that this could very well be a European blade. Perhaps again this may have been of the 'blank' sort we have discussed among trade blades. I am interested in knowing more on how fullers were installed after the blade was already in a forged state.

All the best,
Jim

paolo · 25th June 2012, 06:27 PM

Thank You all for the inputs.
The blade has a ricasso, the first 12,5 cm. on both side are without edge.

Ed, thank You for the valuable notes about Italians in Kassala and about the anadorned hilts . Might I find a woolen tassel somewere ?

About the like number "2" sign, this rimind to me a kind of Caucasian carpet called SILEH (pic attached)
Regards
Paolo

David R · 25th June 2012, 11:09 PM

A beautiful sword, and a very fine piece to have. Congratulations.

Edster · 26th June 2012, 01:03 AM

Paolo,

There are tassels and then there are tassels. The one shown on Jim's post #7 is wrapped and poked through. The one in Iain"s link to Dave's sword is a different style from Darfur with a loop.

I've tried for about an hour to resize an oversized photo and upload what shows an old Hadendawa tassel. I'll try to find another shot on another post. If you find one first, note that groups of stands are laid flat and gathered tightly and then round braided and finally fluffed at the end. There is no wrap around the grip, just gathered tightly. I picture is indeed worth 1,000 words, or at least 29. I think the string is cotton and the round part is stiff. You may be able to make a passable replica if your are handy.

Good luck.
Ed

Jim McDougall · 26th June 2012, 01:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by paolo

Thank You all for the inputs.
The blade has a ricasso, the first 12,5 cm. on both side are without edge.

Ed, thank You for the valuable notes about Italians in Kassala and about the anadorned hilts . Might I find a woolen tassel somewere ?

About the like number "2" sign, this rimind to me a kind of Caucasian carpet called SILEH (pic attached)
Regards
Paolo

Great observation Paulo! This is a perfect reminder of the importance of the motif in rugs and other material culture in identifying some of the designs and motif found in weapons decoration. While many designs are found in the motif, there are often structural features and elements relating to architectural designs as well.
These Caucasian rugs as I understand are actually thought to be abstract images of a dragon, and while I dont think pertain to this particular example the comparison is very well noted.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 26th June 2012, 07:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Great observation Paulo! This is a perfect reminder of the importance of the motif in rugs and other material culture in identifying some of the designs and motif found in weapons decoration. While many designs are found in the motif, there are often structural features and elements relating to architectural designs as well.
These Caucasian rugs as I understand are actually thought to be abstract images of a dragon, and while I dont think pertain to this particular example the comparison is very well noted.

Salaams Jim, I am intrigued by the five fuller blade and suspect the Italian Schiavona influence... Regarding the figure 2 which is correctly identified by A.alnakkas as Ha in the Arabic alphabet... It is not related to the S or Z pattern on the Caucas rug which comes from an entirely different base design. There may well be some talismanic background to the use of this letter; paired. Nice sword and amazing as a first sword from that region!
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

A.alnakkas · 26th June 2012, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Thank you Lofty. Why would the 'ha' be placed in singulars in a paired configuration though. While it is as you note part of the cursive script in the wording, what kind of meaning would it have standing alone?
I think you mean the Letter on the embossed crocodile scabbard is the one representing Allah, correct?

Hey Jim, Yes, the one with Allah is the crocodile scabbard.

As for the letter ح ha then I cannot be sure quite frankly because it could be something else. Reason why I mentioned the Muqatta'at is because I know they have more significance in Sufism. The Muqatta'at purpose is a field of research in Quranic exegesis and am not familiar with any satisfactory answer nor do I have access to any sufi interpretation. Perhaps a field to begin searching in is the sufi sects of Sudan?

Jim McDougall · 26th June 2012, 02:29 PM

Thank you Ibrahiim, and you bring up a very valid point which I had not thought of, the Italian blades associated with schiavona. In considering what sort of European blade this may have been, or modelled after I had forgotten the Italian element. Actually my focus has typically been toward the blades from Solingen which characteristically have dominated the trade blade imports into North Africa, in this case the Sudan.
With Iain and Chris' observations on the ricasso presence it seems likely this could be one of these Italian blades, however Ed's note that the blade may have had the channels added seems plausible as well. Im not too sure from a metallurgy aspect how that is done, but surely it can be.
It should be remembered that the schiavona remained in use far beyond the 17th and 18th century periods to which they are typically assigned. As a traditional weapon they were still being produced or refurbished well into the 19th century.

I agree the dress of this kaskara is very much of the Kasallawi style and probably mounted near the 1940s as suggested. The lozenge pattern and the floral style crosses are favored motif designs typically represented in the silverwork on these hilts. Many of these designs occur in the leatherwork on scabbards and especially the leather straps.

The Sufi presence was well established throughout North Africa and in the Sudan, if I recall correctly especially with the Senussi, who were in Darfur regions and certainly widespread beyond that. Its been some time since I have studied these aspects along with Ali Dinar in Darfur but I do recall the Sufi being a key element in much of this history. It would be interesting to discover more on how the 'ha' letter is used talismanically, and it is well established that this aspect is an important element of Sufi following.

These are the wonders of ethnographic weapons and the things they tell us when investigated and observed forensically, it becomes quite literally an adventure in history with the weapon in focus your guide. It is the part of historic weapons that far exceeds just collecting them, and gratefully there are so many here who share in these interests and in preserving the important history these weapons give us.

Thank you for your always motivating participation and input!

All the best,
Jim

Iain · 26th June 2012, 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

With Iain and Chris' observations on the ricasso presence it seems likely this could be one of these Italian blades, however Ed's note that the blade may have had the channels added seems plausible as well. Im not too sure from a metallurgy aspect how that is done, but surely it can be.
Jim

Could be done by grinding at a later date. But I kind of doubt it as that would affect the temper. I think its more likely the fullers are original.

Five fullered blades are known on takouba as well. Don't have access to all my notes at the moment but will have to see what I can dig up on that later.

Cheers,

Iain

Jim McDougall · 26th June 2012, 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iain

Could be done by grinding at a later date. But I kind of doubt it as that would affect the temper. I think its more likely the fullers are original.

Five fullered blades are known on takouba as well. Don't have access to all my notes at the moment but will have to see what I can dig up on that later.

Cheers,

Iain

Thank you for that note Iain, I am inclined to agree. I have had a hard enough time trying to grasp cold stamping of marks

let alone putting in features I thought were only accomplished at original forging. I think there was something about the five fuller blades along with the note on the three channeled in Briggs perhaps, along with the other notes on 'masri' perhaps as well which were in Rodd.

All the best,
Jim

Edster · 27th June 2012, 12:50 AM

Jim/Lofti,

Thanks for bring up the possible Sufi connection. The sufi brotherhoods or tariqas (turuq I think is the plural) were/are very popular in the more rural areas. Introduced into the Sudan in the 16th Century from North Africa, the Sahel and Arabia. They provided a mystical and more spiritual response to the more legalistic orientation of orthodox Islam. They have and continue contribute to the power bases and political parties in Sudan and are a major component of Popular Islam. The Mahdi was the head of the Sammaniya brotherhood, but his followers, the Ansar were not sufi in outlook. The Khatamiya were popular among the Hadendawa of Eastern Sudan. The Tijania and Birhaniya also sunk regional roots.

For good period commentaries on the ethnographic, economic and political aspects of post-Mahdist Sudan check out "Sudan Notes and Records". It was published annually from 1918 until the mid-1960s, I think. British administrators were well educated and interested in the countryside and the people who lived there. Actually, British and its off-shoot American sociocultural anthropology arguably had its origin in Sudan. SNR is often difficult to access, but some volumes are available on-line, and the Univ. of Michigan has a subscription service.

I just found this on web site for the letter Ha.

"Ha = h

The sixth letter in the Arab alphabet represents number eight and belongs to the element of earth.

This letter, which symbolizes human intuition, has an esoteric meaning for the Sufis, as it is the first letter of the verb habba (to love): “Inna Allah jameel yuhibbu al-jamaal”, which means “truly God is beautiful and loves beauty”. Thus also the saying: “Habba man habba wakariha man kariha” or “He loves whomsoever He chooses to and He hates whomsoever He wishes to”. The letter ‘ha’ denotes the Essence in terms of appearance, presence and existence.

Shaykh ad-Dabbaagh informs us that the ‘ha’ corresponds to perfect mercy, which is a part of prophecy."

There is supposedly a meaning for each letter.

Regards,
Ed

Jim McDougall · 27th June 2012, 04:48 AM

Absolutely fantastic information Ed! Thank you so much for sharing that in detail, which truly adds some interesting possibilities for understanding possible intended meanings on these letters on these scabbards. Your comprehensive knowledge and suggested resources on these regions is remarkable , thank you again for all you have contributed here with your paper and continued input.

All the very best,
Jim

25th June 2012, 06:27 PM	#2
paolo Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 173	Thank You all for the inputs. The blade has a ricasso, the first 12,5 cm. on both side are without edge. Ed, thank You for the valuable notes about Italians in Kassala and about the anadorned hilts . Might I find a woolen tassel somewere ? About the like number "2" sign, this rimind to me a kind of Caucasian carpet called SILEH (pic attached) Regards Paolo Attached Images

26th June 2012, 01:03 AM	#4
Edster Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 411	Tassels Paolo, There are tassels and then there are tassels. The one shown on Jim's post #7 is wrapped and poked through. The one in Iain"s link to Dave's sword is a different style from Darfur with a loop. I've tried for about an hour to resize an oversized photo and upload what shows an old Hadendawa tassel. I'll try to find another shot on another post. If you find one first, note that groups of stands are laid flat and gathered tightly and then round braided and finally fluffed at the end. There is no wrap around the grip, just gathered tightly. I picture is indeed worth 1,000 words, or at least 29. I think the string is cotton and the round part is stiff. You may be able to make a passable replica if your are handy. Good luck. Ed

27th June 2012, 12:50 AM	#11
Edster Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 411	Jim/Lofti, Thanks for bring up the possible Sufi connection. The sufi brotherhoods or tariqas (turuq I think is the plural) were/are very popular in the more rural areas. Introduced into the Sudan in the 16th Century from North Africa, the Sahel and Arabia. They provided a mystical and more spiritual response to the more legalistic orientation of orthodox Islam. They have and continue contribute to the power bases and political parties in Sudan and are a major component of Popular Islam. The Mahdi was the head of the Sammaniya brotherhood, but his followers, the Ansar were not sufi in outlook. The Khatamiya were popular among the Hadendawa of Eastern Sudan. The Tijania and Birhaniya also sunk regional roots. For good period commentaries on the ethnographic, economic and political aspects of post-Mahdist Sudan check out "Sudan Notes and Records". It was published annually from 1918 until the mid-1960s, I think. British administrators were well educated and interested in the countryside and the people who lived there. Actually, British and its off-shoot American sociocultural anthropology arguably had its origin in Sudan. SNR is often difficult to access, but some volumes are available on-line, and the Univ. of Michigan has a subscription service. I just found this on web site for the letter Ha. "Ha = h The sixth letter in the Arab alphabet represents number eight and belongs to the element of earth. This letter, which symbolizes human intuition, has an esoteric meaning for the Sufis, as it is the first letter of the verb habba (to love): “Inna Allah jameel yuhibbu al-jamaal”, which means “truly God is beautiful and loves beauty”. Thus also the saying: “Habba man habba wakariha man kariha” or “He loves whomsoever He chooses to and He hates whomsoever He wishes to”. The letter ‘ha’ denotes the Essence in terms of appearance, presence and existence. Shaykh ad-Dabbaagh informs us that the ‘ha’ corresponds to perfect mercy, which is a part of prophecy." There is supposedly a meaning for each letter. Regards, Ed Last edited by Edster; 27th June 2012 at 01:42 AM.

25th June 2012, 11:09 PM	#3
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,116	A beautiful sword, and a very fine piece to have. Congratulations.

26th June 2012, 02:29 PM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,191	Thank you Ibrahiim, and you bring up a very valid point which I had not thought of, the Italian blades associated with schiavona. In considering what sort of European blade this may have been, or modelled after I had forgotten the Italian element. Actually my focus has typically been toward the blades from Solingen which characteristically have dominated the trade blade imports into North Africa, in this case the Sudan. With Iain and Chris' observations on the ricasso presence it seems likely this could be one of these Italian blades, however Ed's note that the blade may have had the channels added seems plausible as well. Im not too sure from a metallurgy aspect how that is done, but surely it can be. It should be remembered that the schiavona remained in use far beyond the 17th and 18th century periods to which they are typically assigned. As a traditional weapon they were still being produced or refurbished well into the 19th century. I agree the dress of this kaskara is very much of the Kasallawi style and probably mounted near the 1940s as suggested. The lozenge pattern and the floral style crosses are favored motif designs typically represented in the silverwork on these hilts. Many of these designs occur in the leatherwork on scabbards and especially the leather straps. The Sufi presence was well established throughout North Africa and in the Sudan, if I recall correctly especially with the Senussi, who were in Darfur regions and certainly widespread beyond that. Its been some time since I have studied these aspects along with Ali Dinar in Darfur but I do recall the Sufi being a key element in much of this history. It would be interesting to discover more on how the 'ha' letter is used talismanically, and it is well established that this aspect is an important element of Sufi following. These are the wonders of ethnographic weapons and the things they tell us when investigated and observed forensically, it becomes quite literally an adventure in history with the weapon in focus your guide. It is the part of historic weapons that far exceeds just collecting them, and gratefully there are so many here who share in these interests and in preserving the important history these weapons give us. Thank you for your always motivating participation and input! All the best, Jim

27th June 2012, 04:48 AM	#12
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,191	Absolutely fantastic information Ed! Thank you so much for sharing that in detail, which truly adds some interesting possibilities for understanding possible intended meanings on these letters on these scabbards. Your comprehensive knowledge and suggested resources on these regions is remarkable , thank you again for all you have contributed here with your paper and continued input. All the very best, Jim