Keris for comment

Atlantia · 25th June 2012, 12:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Brooms clean ...

I want that .

You like the Keris then?

Rick · 25th June 2012, 01:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlantia

You like the Keris then?

Well .. kinda .

Atlantia · 25th June 2012, 01:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Well .. kinda .

LOL! Tough crowd!

A. G. Maisey · 25th June 2012, 02:01 AM

Actually if you translate all those exotic strange sounding Javanese keris words they are all very, very ordinary things. Javanese art draws on the world around us for its motifs and the names thereof.

Atlantia · 25th June 2012, 06:07 PM

Thanks Alan,

Is there any way to date a keris like this?

Best
Gene

David · 25th June 2012, 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlantia

LOL! Tough crowd!

Well Gene, i more than kinda like it...

Love this hilt btw. Simply and elegant.

Would love to see the blade in proper stain...

Atlantia · 25th June 2012, 09:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Well Gene, i more than kinda like it...

Love this hilt btw. Simply and elegant.

Would love to see the blade in proper stain...

Thanks David,

I love the hilt, beautifully flowing and organic.
I thought the level of stain was ok, would it have been much darker originally?

Best
Gene

A. G. Maisey · 25th June 2012, 11:49 PM

Gene, we don't really try to date keris in the way that you would think of time.

A collector in the western world will often try to attach a date to a keris so that it makes sense to him, but in keris culture in Jawa we don't date in terms of calendar years, we classify in terms of tangguh. There have been thousands of words written on this subject in this forum.

Briefly and simply tangguh is a system best applied to keris of very good quality; when applied to a relatively recent keris the determination of tangguh will often give an indication of a time frame that will make sense in terms of time as you understand it, however, the more distant from the present that a tangguh becomes, the less relevant that tangguh is to actual calendar years, until eventually you enter the realm of myth and legend.

It is very important to understand that the keris is embedded in belief systems, and these belief systems do not necessarily revere the formal measurement of time, nor interpret it, in the same way that you as a product of Western European culture do.

It is very difficult to apply an appraisal of tangguh to a photograph, as some of the things which need to be assessed to form an opinion cannot be assessed from a photo, so my opinion here is not being given based upon tangguh indicators. To me this looks like an East Jawa, probably Madura keris, and dating from around 1800 --- give or take 50 years either side of 1800. Stylistically it is Mataram, and because it is East Jawa we can use one of the alternate names for the pamor and call that 'pamor singkir'. Singkir was a Majapahit empu who was known for this type of adeg pamor.

Jean · 26th June 2012, 01:55 PM

Attached are the pictures of another kris blade with pamor Adeg Sapu from my collection. The blade was recently cleaned in Solo and is probably not as old as estimated by Alan for Gene's blade.
Best regards

Atlantia · 26th June 2012, 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Gene, we don't really try to date keris in the way that you would think of time.

A collector in the western world will often try to attach a date to a keris so that it makes sense to him, but in keris culture in Jawa we don't date in terms of calendar years, we classify in terms of tangguh. There have been thousands of words written on this subject in this forum.

Briefly and simply tangguh is a system best applied to keris of very good quality; when applied to a relatively recent keris the determination of tangguh will often give an indication of a time frame that will make sense in terms of time as you understand it, however, the more distant from the present that a tangguh becomes, the less relevant that tangguh is to actual calendar years, until eventually you enter the realm of myth and legend.

It is very important to understand that the keris is embedded in belief systems, and these belief systems do not necessarily revere the formal measurement of time, nor interpret it, in the same way that you as a product of Western European culture do.

It is very difficult to apply an appraisal of tangguh to a photograph, as some of the things which need to be assessed to form an opinion cannot be assessed from a photo, so my opinion here is not being given based upon tangguh indicators. To me this looks like an East Jawa, probably Madura keris, and dating from around 1800 --- give or take 50 years either side of 1800. Stylistically it is Mataram, and because it is East Jawa we can use one of the alternate names for the pamor and call that 'pamor singkir'. Singkir was a Majapahit empu who was known for this type of adeg pamor.

Hi Alan,

Excellent information thank you very much.

Best
Gene

26th June 2012, 01:55 PM	#9
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Attached are the pictures of another kris blade with pamor Adeg Sapu from my collection. The blade was recently cleaned in Solo and is probably not as old as estimated by Alan for Gene's blade. Best regards Attached Images

25th June 2012, 02:01 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	Actually if you translate all those exotic strange sounding Javanese keris words they are all very, very ordinary things. Javanese art draws on the world around us for its motifs and the names thereof.

25th June 2012, 06:07 PM	#5
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Thanks Alan, Is there any way to date a keris like this? Best Gene

25th June 2012, 11:49 PM	#8
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	Gene, we don't really try to date keris in the way that you would think of time. A collector in the western world will often try to attach a date to a keris so that it makes sense to him, but in keris culture in Jawa we don't date in terms of calendar years, we classify in terms of tangguh. There have been thousands of words written on this subject in this forum. Briefly and simply tangguh is a system best applied to keris of very good quality; when applied to a relatively recent keris the determination of tangguh will often give an indication of a time frame that will make sense in terms of time as you understand it, however, the more distant from the present that a tangguh becomes, the less relevant that tangguh is to actual calendar years, until eventually you enter the realm of myth and legend. It is very important to understand that the keris is embedded in belief systems, and these belief systems do not necessarily revere the formal measurement of time, nor interpret it, in the same way that you as a product of Western European culture do. It is very difficult to apply an appraisal of tangguh to a photograph, as some of the things which need to be assessed to form an opinion cannot be assessed from a photo, so my opinion here is not being given based upon tangguh indicators. To me this looks like an East Jawa, probably Madura keris, and dating from around 1800 --- give or take 50 years either side of 1800. Stylistically it is Mataram, and because it is East Jawa we can use one of the alternate names for the pamor and call that 'pamor singkir'. Singkir was a Majapahit empu who was known for this type of adeg pamor.