An immense Khyber sword

Lew · 15th June 2012, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Well, the drag on the scabbard looks afghani to me, akin to military examples.

Ariel

The scabbard is a recently made replacement made within the last 50 yrs or so it is not original to the knife.

ariel · 15th June 2012, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lew

Ariel

The scabbard is a recently made replacement made within the last 50 yrs or so it is not original to the knife.

Yes, I understand, but it means that the khyber itself was residing in Afghanistan at the end of the 19th - beginning of 20th century ( when the military khybers were abundant) and perceived as Afghani by the natives. What made people believe it was Indian? Those usually have much more elaborate handles. This one is IMHO far too simple for the indian variety. Blade, - I can see your point: chiseling, bling-bling..... :-)

Lew · 15th June 2012, 02:35 PM

Northern India in the 19th century is now Pakistan and the border now is very fluid

spiral · 15th June 2012, 04:46 PM

On the origin questian of Lews piece, I {I think.

} Interestingly seem to recall from Eggerton that the Kabul Armouries were often staffed by Sikhs weapon smiths from the Punjab or some such?

{Havent got a copy to hand so cant quote exactly & could be mistaken perhaps? Not read it for 10 or so years.}

Just a little bit more grist to the mill!

Spiral

VANDOO · 15th June 2012, 05:37 PM

WELL THIS POST DOES ESTABLISH A PROVENANCE OF SORTS.

CONSIDERING THE STORY OF THE AMOUNT OF MOVEMENT FROM COLLECTION TO COLLECTION I WOULD SAY THE PRICE WAS VERY REASONABLE. IF IT HAD BEEN SERIOUS DEALERS EACH ADDING THEIR MARK UPS FOR PROFIT IT SHOULD HAVE SOLD FOR MUCH MORE.

THE SELLER COULD HAVE SAID SWORD HIGHLY SOUGHT AFTER BY MANY. HAS BEEN IN THE COLLECTIONS OF SEVERAL NOTED COLLECTORS. UNIQUE POSSIBLY ASSOCIATED WITH THE CULT OF LEOPARD MEN, CHIEFS PERSONEL EXECUTION SWORD LARGEST EXAMPLE IN EXHISTANCE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE DEATHS OF MANY.

DON'T LET THESE POSTS GET YOU DOWN ENJOY YOUR SWORD, IT HAS SURELY DRAWN MORE POSTS THAN MOST SWORDS AND IS CERTINALY INFAMOUS NOW , THIS THREAD HAS SET A BENCHMARK OF SORTS. YOU NOW ARE THE OWNER OF THIS FAMOUS SWORD AND NO ONE ELSE HAS ONE

Norman McCormick · 15th June 2012, 06:10 PM

Hi All,
I think some folks may have got the wrong end of the stick with regard to my post. I don't think I was being disparaging or negative merely calling into question the claims made by the seller as to the age of the piece nothing more, please reread my original post for clarification. A Forum member did buy a Tabar from this seller which upon receipt turned out to be "not as described". I have watched this seller on the net from whence he started and have not bought from him as I personally have been unable to satisfy myself as to the veracity of the descriptions given that is not to say that the descriptions themselves were inaccurate or untruthful. These items are not new and are therefore subject to "opinions" as the hard facts are no longer available. I stick to my guns, this Khyber knife is not in entirety from {1800-1849}, may or may not be in entirety from {India} and is not in entirety {original}. Text/dates in brackets are the words used by the seller. I sincerely hope that John is not put off but is, as was my intention, more aware that photos and descriptions can sometimes be misleading although whether or not this is the case here is yet to be resolved. I am only too aware that personal fiscal and emotional input is a part of "our hobby" and I have written on the Forum about this before but I am convinced in this case that I was appropriately diplomatic in my statements with regard to John's purchase.
My Regards to All,
Norman.

Stasa Katz · 17th June 2012, 03:08 PM

Gentlemen, thank you for giving your time here.

All in all, I feel satisfied. I was well aware that the scabbard was not original; am glad that I have a way to keep this big blade safe while learning to make good quality reproduction scabbards.

And the information you provided was valuable. This bigger blade lacks one feature that shows up on most other afghan blades, whether Khyber swords or chooras--a sort of lozenge that sits atop the spine of the blade just where the blade joins the handle.

The take home lesson is, never purchase unless

1) All photos of the item are high resolution and show the top -- the spine of the blade. A well forged choora/pesh kabz or salawar yatagan will show that the smith has given plenty of skilled attention to the that spine area of the blade. (Am not sure of terminology)

My hunch is that the handle may have been broken, leaving a shortened tang, hence a re-done blade with a shortened handle.

Once a tang has been broken, it would probably be hard to repair and restore to full length, unless I am mistaken.

Thank you all again.

Its part of the adventures of collecting.

Atlantia · 17th June 2012, 04:32 PM

Hi John,

When I handled it there were clear gaps around the fit of the hilt that appear to have been filled now. Any ideas what has been used?

Gavin Nugent · 18th June 2012, 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Aubrey

Once a tang has been broken, it would probably be hard to repair and restore to full length, unless I am mistaken.

Thank you all again.

Its part of the adventures of collecting.

Hi John,

You've gone away with all the good in this and that is important, onwards and upwards.

With regards to a broken tang, I am sure many smiths with tell you here it is a very easy to fix with a simple lap weld, especially the tang as it can be then dressed up with new grip slabs and a grip strap.

Gav

Jim McDougall · 20th June 2012, 10:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi All,
I think some folks may have got the wrong end of the stick with regard to my post. I don't think I was being disparaging or negative merely calling into question the claims made by the seller as to the age of the piece nothing more, please reread my original post for clarification. A Forum member did buy a Tabar from this seller which upon receipt turned out to be "not as described". I have watched this seller on the net from whence he started and have not bought from him as I personally have been unable to satisfy myself as to the veracity of the descriptions given that is not to say that the descriptions themselves were inaccurate or untruthful. These items are not new and are therefore subject to "opinions" as the hard facts are no longer available. I stick to my guns, this Khyber knife is not in entirety from {1800-1849}, may or may not be in entirety from {India} and is not in entirety {original}. Text/dates in brackets are the words used by the seller. I sincerely hope that John is not put off but is, as was my intention, more aware that photos and descriptions can sometimes be misleading although whether or not this is the case here is yet to be resolved. I am only too aware that personal fiscal and emotional input is a part of "our hobby" and I have written on the Forum about this before but I am convinced in this case that I was appropriately diplomatic in my statements with regard to John's purchase.
My Regards to All,
Norman.

Extremely well put Norman, and I would like to clarify that my own comments in no way were directed at you or your observations in particular, but that the overall context of the input on this item had taken a most negative demeanor. While I do not favor direct criticism of dealers or sellers openly on these pages, you indeed have a wonderfully diplomatic approach which is much appreciated and admirable, and think you well expressed your concerns. My intent was to return the focus to observing the character and its possible regional and historical details.
I apologize for any misunderstanding due to my comments, you write great stuff Norman!!!

All the best,
Jim

Jim McDougall · 20th June 2012, 11:18 PM

An excellent entry!!! I had forgotten about this wonderful book by Mr. Ondaatje, and it is truly a remarkable adventure he undertook in studying Richard Burton's time in India. Here is another perfect example of the importance of references and resources which tend to the events and cultures of specific regions in better understanding the weapons we collect and study.

The heading pesh kabz and choora in Sind is interesting and well placed as these were of course present in these areas, and of course it goes to the diffusion of these arms into and often throughout the Indian subcontinent.
The references to the Talpur's were rulers in Sindh in the 18th century who had not only come from Iranian descent, but the craftsmen there were often Persian as well who were influenced by Ottoman, Chinese and Indian styles as well as Persian.

The book by Ondaatje is fascinating and the reference to Talpurs sent me looking for an article (still not located) , "The Swords of the Shazadas and Talpurs", Peter Hayes, Connoisseur, Nov. 1971, Vol.178, #717. p.177-

I would here note that the term 'pesh kabz' is sometimes a conundrum in exactly when it should be applied and to which of the grouping of knives known in these areas. The pesh kabz (Persian= fore front) is typically a dagger with recurved blade with T spine, however there are examples with straight blade narrowing dramatically to point very much resembling the 'Khyber knife'. It seems as daggers these may often be termed 'choora' as the smaller 'knife or dagger' form of the Khyber, but the term choora itself seems to be a general term for knife in either Urdu or Punjabi, perhaps boith. With the unclear nature of the choora term, it seems in some references even the Khyber itself has been termed choora.

The Afghan dagger 'karud' is often much like a pesh kabz but much heavier and often shaped like a Khyber but the grip is much bolder.

It seems further that the recurved blade in the pesh kabz has become represented throughout India in the 'chilanum' with somewhat anthromorphic hilt as well as the khanjharli with a mushroom shaped pommel as well as the khanjhar with parrothead type hilt.

The karud and Khyber knife seem primarily Afghan, along with the smaller straight blade pesh kabz often termed 'choora'. While Afghan weapons do reflect a degree of Persian influence in thier often less well executed openwork in decoration, it certainly does not seem to me to the extent of Uzbek or Sindhi weapons. Again, in Afghanistan the craftsmanship is often situated in remote tribal regions and reflecting nominally the influences of interloping arms. The craftsmanship in Sind seems more inclined to direct Persian influences in court oriented craftsmen, and the case in Bukhara as well.

Norman McCormick · 21st June 2012, 07:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Extremely well put Norman, and I would like to clarify that my own comments in no way were directed at you or your observations in particular, but that the overall context of the input on this item had taken a most negative demeanor. While I do not favor direct criticism of dealers or sellers openly on these pages, you indeed have a wonderfully diplomatic approach which is much appreciated and admirable, and think you well expressed your concerns. My intent was to return the focus to observing the character and its possible regional and historical details.
I apologize for any misunderstanding due to my comments, you write great stuff Norman!!!

All the best,
Jim

Hi Jim,
No problems, I only wish the net and a resource like the one we are fortunate enough to have here had been available when I first became interested in 'our hobby', it would have saved a lot of gnashing of teeth and wasting of hard earned funds. I'm glad to see that the debate has raised further questions and as always I'm following the discussion with much interest. Safe travels.
Kind Regards,
Norman.

15th June 2012, 06:10 PM	#6
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,646	Hi All, I think some folks may have got the wrong end of the stick with regard to my post. I don't think I was being disparaging or negative merely calling into question the claims made by the seller as to the age of the piece nothing more, please reread my original post for clarification. A Forum member did buy a Tabar from this seller which upon receipt turned out to be "not as described". I have watched this seller on the net from whence he started and have not bought from him as I personally have been unable to satisfy myself as to the veracity of the descriptions given that is not to say that the descriptions themselves were inaccurate or untruthful. These items are not new and are therefore subject to "opinions" as the hard facts are no longer available. I stick to my guns, this Khyber knife is not in entirety from {1800-1849}, may or may not be in entirety from {India} and is not in entirety {original}. Text/dates in brackets are the words used by the seller. I sincerely hope that John is not put off but is, as was my intention, more aware that photos and descriptions can sometimes be misleading although whether or not this is the case here is yet to be resolved. I am only too aware that personal fiscal and emotional input is a part of "our hobby" and I have written on the Forum about this before but I am convinced in this case that I was appropriately diplomatic in my statements with regard to John's purchase. My Regards to All, Norman. Last edited by Norman McCormick; 15th June 2012 at 06:21 PM.

20th June 2012, 11:18 PM	#11
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,670	An excellent entry!!! I had forgotten about this wonderful book by Mr. Ondaatje, and it is truly a remarkable adventure he undertook in studying Richard Burton's time in India. Here is another perfect example of the importance of references and resources which tend to the events and cultures of specific regions in better understanding the weapons we collect and study. The heading pesh kabz and choora in Sind is interesting and well placed as these were of course present in these areas, and of course it goes to the diffusion of these arms into and often throughout the Indian subcontinent. The references to the Talpur's were rulers in Sindh in the 18th century who had not only come from Iranian descent, but the craftsmen there were often Persian as well who were influenced by Ottoman, Chinese and Indian styles as well as Persian. The book by Ondaatje is fascinating and the reference to Talpurs sent me looking for an article (still not located) , "The Swords of the Shazadas and Talpurs", Peter Hayes, Connoisseur, Nov. 1971, Vol.178, #717. p.177- I would here note that the term 'pesh kabz' is sometimes a conundrum in exactly when it should be applied and to which of the grouping of knives known in these areas. The pesh kabz (Persian= fore front) is typically a dagger with recurved blade with T spine, however there are examples with straight blade narrowing dramatically to point very much resembling the 'Khyber knife'. It seems as daggers these may often be termed 'choora' as the smaller 'knife or dagger' form of the Khyber, but the term choora itself seems to be a general term for knife in either Urdu or Punjabi, perhaps boith. With the unclear nature of the choora term, it seems in some references even the Khyber itself has been termed choora. The Afghan dagger 'karud' is often much like a pesh kabz but much heavier and often shaped like a Khyber but the grip is much bolder. It seems further that the recurved blade in the pesh kabz has become represented throughout India in the 'chilanum' with somewhat anthromorphic hilt as well as the khanjharli with a mushroom shaped pommel as well as the khanjhar with parrothead type hilt. The karud and Khyber knife seem primarily Afghan, along with the smaller straight blade pesh kabz often termed 'choora'. While Afghan weapons do reflect a degree of Persian influence in thier often less well executed openwork in decoration, it certainly does not seem to me to the extent of Uzbek or Sindhi weapons. Again, in Afghanistan the craftsmanship is often situated in remote tribal regions and reflecting nominally the influences of interloping arms. The craftsmanship in Sind seems more inclined to direct Persian influences in court oriented craftsmen, and the case in Bukhara as well. Last edited by Jim McDougall; 20th June 2012 at 11:31 PM.

15th June 2012, 02:35 PM	#3
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Northern India in the 19th century is now Pakistan and the border now is very fluid

15th June 2012, 04:46 PM	#4
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	On the origin questian of Lews piece, I {I think. } Interestingly seem to recall from Eggerton that the Kabul Armouries were often staffed by Sikhs weapon smiths from the Punjab or some such? {Havent got a copy to hand so cant quote exactly & could be mistaken perhaps? Not read it for 10 or so years.} Just a little bit more grist to the mill! Spiral

15th June 2012, 05:37 PM	#5
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	WELL THIS POST DOES ESTABLISH A PROVENANCE OF SORTS. CONSIDERING THE STORY OF THE AMOUNT OF MOVEMENT FROM COLLECTION TO COLLECTION I WOULD SAY THE PRICE WAS VERY REASONABLE. IF IT HAD BEEN SERIOUS DEALERS EACH ADDING THEIR MARK UPS FOR PROFIT IT SHOULD HAVE SOLD FOR MUCH MORE. THE SELLER COULD HAVE SAID SWORD HIGHLY SOUGHT AFTER BY MANY. HAS BEEN IN THE COLLECTIONS OF SEVERAL NOTED COLLECTORS. UNIQUE POSSIBLY ASSOCIATED WITH THE CULT OF LEOPARD MEN, CHIEFS PERSONEL EXECUTION SWORD LARGEST EXAMPLE IN EXHISTANCE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE DEATHS OF MANY. DON'T LET THESE POSTS GET YOU DOWN ENJOY YOUR SWORD, IT HAS SURELY DRAWN MORE POSTS THAN MOST SWORDS AND IS CERTINALY INFAMOUS NOW , THIS THREAD HAS SET A BENCHMARK OF SORTS. YOU NOW ARE THE OWNER OF THIS FAMOUS SWORD AND NO ONE ELSE HAS ONE

17th June 2012, 03:08 PM	#7
Stasa Katz Member Join Date: Apr 2012 Posts: 18	Thank you all for taking time on this--its education Gentlemen, thank you for giving your time here. All in all, I feel satisfied. I was well aware that the scabbard was not original; am glad that I have a way to keep this big blade safe while learning to make good quality reproduction scabbards. And the information you provided was valuable. This bigger blade lacks one feature that shows up on most other afghan blades, whether Khyber swords or chooras--a sort of lozenge that sits atop the spine of the blade just where the blade joins the handle. The take home lesson is, never purchase unless 1) All photos of the item are high resolution and show the top -- the spine of the blade. A well forged choora/pesh kabz or salawar yatagan will show that the smith has given plenty of skilled attention to the that spine area of the blade. (Am not sure of terminology) My hunch is that the handle may have been broken, leaving a shortened tang, hence a re-done blade with a shortened handle. Once a tang has been broken, it would probably be hard to repair and restore to full length, unless I am mistaken. Thank you all again. Its part of the adventures of collecting.

17th June 2012, 04:32 PM	#8
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Hi John, When I handled it there were clear gaps around the fit of the hilt that appear to have been filled now. Any ideas what has been used?