interesting jambiya on eBay

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by spiral

Bonjure Ibrahim!

Yes I agree that with a sharp edge & very bright light even inner core of rhino with heavy melanin & calcium deposits can have a 1mm of translucency. This is harder on very rounded surfaces of course.

Also this is not a black core but does have years of dirt without the care of oiling, which also promotes the translucency, hence it being more common with age.

One of my points was, identyfying horn by burning as well as bieng destructive doesnt rule out other horn types, they all smell of burning hair.

Beneath the years of dirt no oiling it may be translucent & indeed if set on fire.

But the clear formation structure of this jambiya grip, is rhino horn, I grew up in a family working at importing timber world wide, we had boxes of recognition keys for identyfying timber end grain under magnification. I recognise that this is no timber & the only horn with fiberous orange peel effect on the cross cut end grain is rhino!

Simple realy...

spiral

Salaams spiral ... I knew that and joking apart... I would like to see the basic tests done to determine the material. It would be quite rare to have a Royal Khanjar hilt in Rhino simply because the entire thing is usually covered in decorative filigree silver. On the other hand it tends to swerve the debate toward the Muscat 8 Ringer ~ What it is exactly; I have to say I don't know.
However I think, now, looking at it with magnification you are right ! Rhino. That marks it up about 1000% for quality.
The exact provenance is still a puzzle....

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[A.alnakkas]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams spiral ... I knew that and joking apart... I would like to see the basic tests done to determine the material. It would be quite rare to have a Royal Khanjar hilt in Rhino simply because the entire thing is usually covered in decorative filigree silver. On the other hand it tends to swerve the debate toward the Muscat 8 Ringer ~ What it is exactly; I have to say I don't know.
Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Not as rare as you think. came across 3 here in Kuwait. Ordered one for a friend from Australia. There are some, but as you said the number of silver makes it hard to notice.

EDIT: And damn do they sell fast. Mainly Saudi's buy them.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

Not as rare as you think. came across 3 here in Kuwait. Ordered one for a friend from Australia. There are some, but as you said the number of silver makes it hard to notice.

EDIT: And damn do they sell fast. Mainly Saudi's buy them.

Salaams A.alnakkas~ Interesting as that gives a pointer to the Murrah. It would explain the bedu style basic workbelt and the peculiar blade which may be Syrian. If it is Rhino ( and I believe it is ) you have a rare one.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[A.alnakkas]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams A.alnakkas~ Interesting as that gives a pointer to the Murrah. It would explain the bedu style basic workbelt and the peculiar blade which may be Syrian. If it is Rhino ( and I believe it is ) you have a rare one.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Hmm am not sure about the connection. Most of the Omani Rhino khanjars actually come from Oman to Kuwait recently by some antique dealers or as gifts..

I need to hit the tribes history book and see the movement of Murrah. Btw, do you mean a specific branch, maybe one related to the Murrah's of Qatar?

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

Hmm am not sure about the connection. Most of the Omani Rhino khanjars actually come from Oman to Kuwait recently by some antique dealers or as gifts..

I need to hit the tribes history book and see the movement of Murrah. Btw, do you mean a specific branch, maybe one related to the Murrah's of Qatar?

Salaams A.alnakkas ~ Ah the dreaded recent dealer network ... in which case I suspect it has come from Yemen or Salalah. (possibly Muscat) The romantic idea of it arriving by Murrah fades with that... The blade still puzzles me. It could be an 8 ringer modified Muscat Khanjar or a Royal Khanjar that has very much lost its silver hilt decoration. The amazing disclosure that this has a Rhino hilt completely transforms the dagger. You may be in a good position to drop in and view the Tareq Rajeb Museum in Kuwait.. they may help on Murrah etc. Their weapons collection is very nice.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[spiral]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

However I think, now, looking at it with magnification you are right ! Rhino. That marks it up about 1000% for quality.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

& value!

Thank you Ibrahim, glad you could see it to. The eyes have it...

Spiral

[kahnjar1]

FROM IBRAHIIM'S POST ABOVE
One other point~ There is actually no such thing as an area or district in Saudia Arabia close to the Oman border exhibiting artefacts etc or vica versa... only sand. No settlements or towns or ancient villages... Have a look at google earth to dispel this myth. The closest cousin to the Omani royal khanjar is in the Jazan region which was in Yemen on the Red Sea but about 100 years ago was integrated into Saudia ... Sea trade probably took the Royal Omani Khanjar design in that direction from Muscat in "about the mid 19th C". after its design by Sheherezad wife of the Omani Sultan.


Your point is noted Ibrahiim......As has been stated previously here, the "borders" spoken of are MODERN DAY lines in the sand. I think we are well aware that these modern day countries did not come into being until relatively recent times. I am simply trying to place the POSSIBLE origin of this piece. This is after all a DISCUSSION Forum.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

FROM IBRAHIIM'S POST ABOVE
One other point~ There is actually no such thing as an area or district in Saudia Arabia close to the Oman border exhibiting artefacts etc or vica versa... only sand. No settlements or towns or ancient villages... Have a look at google earth to dispel this myth. The closest cousin to the Omani royal khanjar is in the Jazan region which was in Yemen on the Red Sea but about 100 years ago was integrated into Saudia ... Sea trade probably took the Royal Omani Khanjar design in that direction from Muscat in "about the mid 19th C". after its design by Sheherezad wife of the Omani Sultan.


Your point is noted Ibrahiim......As has been stated previously here, the "borders" spoken of are MODERN DAY lines in the sand. I think we are well aware that these modern day countries did not come into being until relatively recent times. I am simply trying to place the POSSIBLE origin of this piece. This is after all a DISCUSSION Forum.

Salaams kahnjar1 Please do not get me wrong on this ... Im not trying to be clever.. A whole lot of folks ( even here) are unfamiliar with the borders of these three countries which are stil ill defined and for many years have had little or no access. I even refer to peripheral areas of adjoining countries myself... forgetting that Saudia border areas are utterly moonlike in landscape and no fixed habitation exists for hundreds of miles. Criss crossing this region are the infrequent tribes,(like al Murrah) though, this doesn't constitute a fixed ethnographic base for artefacts. Where there is a lot of cross border leakage both ways is Oman/Yemen since the tribes straddle the border. I think this is where this dagger is likely to have been used and later, according to the new owner, it has been traded through a Kuwaiti dealer... perhaps gathered in Salalah.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[A.alnakkas]

Ibrahim,

I didnt get this from a Kuwaiti dealer, rather from an American online.

When I mentioned that Kuwaiti dealers buy rhino khanjars from Oman I wasnt specifically speaking about this khanjar but about the other examples that exist in Kuwait mainly of normal Omani shape or the 'royal' hilt type which has horn like silver decoration.

Infact, you can check Artzi's site for a few Saidi type 'royal' hilts with rhino similar to this.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

Ibrahim,

I didnt get this from a Kuwaiti dealer, rather from an American online.

When I mentioned that Kuwaiti dealers buy rhino khanjars from Oman I wasnt specifically speaking about this khanjar but about the other examples that exist in Kuwait mainly of normal Omani shape or the 'royal' hilt type which has horn like silver decoration.

Infact, you can check Artzi's site for a few Saidi type 'royal' hilts with rhino similar to this.

ok so its from outside... so no clues as to provenance from that angle..It rather throws the evidence. I think the trail ends thereabouts. Any other clues?.. No clues from the seller? I looked at artzi and 11657 and was reminded of the preference for rhino even on a number of virtually 90% silver covered Royal khanjar hilts.. the top hilt silver button arrangement on that reference is very similar to yours... My guestimate of provenance rests somewhere between Southern Oman/ Yemen in its useage and Muscat in its manufacture... The blade however... no idea...maybe India ?

Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by spiral

& value!

Thank you Ibrahim, glad you could see it to. The eyes have it...

Spiral

Salaams Spiral ~ Ha! Nicely put. The trend here is for the translucent blonded edge ... It threw me seeing the dull hilt but once I had followed your instruction it became obvious it was "Whahid al Garn" The one with the horn.(Rhino)
Your expertise with the wood tagging is indeed a rare talent.. Although there are some odd woods here like Meez, Karot and an almost iron hard heavyweight thing from the Jebel Akhdar called Atom none of which were exported except the latter, apparently, as the favoured woodwork on some K98K Vermacht rifles in the early part of WW2. It is teak white in colour but stains black almost like ebony and carves well. All three are favoured these days as camel stick wood.
Using both of my mark one eyeballs I was looking at the end of hilt photo when a friendly but invisible tap on the shoulder whispered in my ear ... Its Rhino Stupid !!

Shukran!

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[spiral]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

"Originally Posted by spiral

& value!

Thank you Ibrahim, glad you could see it to. The eyes have it... "

Spiral
Salaams Spiral ~ Ha! Nicely put. The trend here is for the translucent blonded edge ... It threw me seeing the dull hilt but once I had followed your instruction it became obvious it was "Whahid al Garn" The one with the horn.(Rhino)
Your expertise with the wood tagging is indeed a rare talent.. Although there are some odd woods here like Meez, Karot and an almost iron hard heavyweight thing from the Jebel Akhdar called Atom none of which were exported except the latter, apparently, as the favoured woodwork on some K98K Vermacht rifles in the early part of WW2. It is teak white in colour but stains black almost like ebony and carves well. All three are favoured these days as camel stick wood.
Using both of my mark one eyeballs I was looking at the end of hilt photo when a friendly but invisible tap on the shoulder whispered in my ear ... Its Rhino Stupid !!

Shukran!

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Bonjour Ibrahim!

My "expertise" with wood is minimal, sadley, Its a process of work or recognition & rejection based opn key cards.... & a few get remebered of course & the basic growth structures of wood sometimes remembered.

There a many thousands of commercial species, I would merly recognise a few hundred. {Of course the undestading & use of keys can with enough time recognise any commercial species.If one puts enough hours in.} If the species is uncommercial then its on to those Fedral labs. Kew garden types who have non commercial species ID. cards as well.

But thank you for understanding my stance, I couldnt see why you couldnt see it, For many reasons I was relieved when you did.

You took my stance well I think..

Shukran!

Spiral

[spiral]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Spiral ~ Ha! Nicely put. The trend here is for the translucent blonded edge ... It threw me seeing the dull hilt but once I had followed your instruction it became obvious it was "Whahid al Garn" The one with the horn.(Rhino)
.................................................. .........

Using both of my mark one eyeballs I was looking at the end of hilt photo when a friendly but invisible tap on the shoulder whispered in my ear ... Its Rhino Stupid !!

Shukran!

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Namaste Ibrahim!

PerhapsI recomend the book "The Art of Rhinoceros Horn Carving in China" by Jan Chapman to you Ibrahiim.

Although not perfect it has many excelent photos demonstrating genuine Rhino horn grain, growth styles etc. Also a small section on fake horns.

I am sure you would find it interesting & helpfull, Given your earlier opinions re the both horn in this & the "Recent Jambiya and a new Khanjar " thread by Archer.

Regards
Spiral

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by spiral

Namaste Ibrahim!

PerhapsI recomend the book "The Art of Rhinoceros Horn Carving in China" by Jan Chapman to you Ibrahiim.

Although not perfect it has many excelent photos demonstrating genuine Rhino horn grain, growth styles etc. Also a small section on fake horns.

I am sure you would find it interesting & helpfull, Given your earlier opinions re the both horn in this & the "Recent Jambiya and a new Khanjar " thread by Archer.

Regards
Spiral

Salaams Spiral ~ Interesting reference indeed. I am all for that. Naturally we try to switch to composite or non rare horn but the demand is still high for the rare stuff sadly... and since almost single handedly Yemeni daggers, though, I'm afraid Omani too... have caused a great demise in the Rhino population which faces extinction. After all, composite hilts accept all the pins in exactly the same way as Rhino...or Elephant. Local people, however, think I'm mad to even consider it. It would be interesting to see Mamoth tusk used on Khanjars but it has never been done to my knowledge... There was a half rumour drifting about that Giraffe hoof was also used but I need to see that to analyse etc... It doesn't help that the local Arabic term for Rhino is Z'raff !
Actually Rhino hilt in Oman is usually very simple to spot since the edges are nearly always translucent which is easy to see with a powerful pen torch. I'm rambling on a bit here but I haven't dropped the baton quite...

I'm just trying to manouvre it around to try to persuade you to run a disertation on Rhino horn since you have the book and I don't and the chances of it being stocked out here are totally zero!

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[spiral]

Thank you But there people more informed than I to do such work I am sure on this forum.

Re. your ID of this jambiya it seems to match with "cult of the Jambiya" by Schuyler V.R. Camman {1977}

Spiral

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by spiral

Thank you But there people more informed than I to do such work I am sure on this forum.

Re. your ID of this jambiya it seems to match with "cult of the Jambiya" by Schuyler V.R. Camman {1977}

Spiral

Salaams Spiral ~ Well you certainly seem quite well informed to me ! Brilliant addition of this reference(not previously known to me) thank you. Do continue to post ~ I deduce from your style and input that you have the ethno detective in your blood ... Bravo !! Encore !!!

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.