Twistcore kris with... erm.. Wha-- What is this?

kai · 9th June 2012, 10:10 PM

Congrats, that's really a neat find! Looks like an early 20th c. (or possibly turn of the century) kalis taluseko to me.

Toss the pommel and grip binding (possibly everything except the ferrule and asang-asang); IMHO it looks like a unqualified western repair. Lucky you - a complete piece would have demanded a much higher price...

And please post pics after you gave the blade a good cleaning and etching!

Regards,
Kai

Battara · 10th June 2012, 09:43 PM

I'm with Kai on this one. I also agree - keep the baka-baka and the ferrule, lose the rest of the hilt. However, I might say slightly older, perhaps no earlier than the 1860s?

ThePepperSkull · 11th June 2012, 09:17 PM

Thanks for the info, gents!

I was thinking of keeping the ferrule and baca-baca, and replacing the rest of the hilt with a simple narra kakatua pommeled hilt with wrapping laquered black.

I thought the hilt it had on now may have been a hilt form from another culture, but seeing as it is a western repair/re-hilt, I won't feel bad getting rid of the rest of it.

Although, the metal buddha, etc pieces on the grip remind me of Japanese menuki. Possibly from a smaller blade like a tanto. Does anyone know if the buddha was a common type of menuki form used? I know the fudo myo-o was a figure that featured in a lot of old katana menuki, but the buddha I am not sure of.

VANDOO · 12th June 2012, 02:23 AM

I PERSONALLY WOULD LOOK INTO THIS ITEM A BIT MORE BEFORE I RUSHED TO DISCARDED THE CURRENT HANDLE AND MAKE IT MORE NORMAL. AT PRESENT IT IS UNIQUE AND FROM THE PICTURES THE HANDLE DOSEN'T LOOK LIKE SOME RECENT POORLY DONE JOB BY AN UNSKILLED WESTERNER. HOW IS THE BALANCE DOES THE HANDLE FIT THE BLADE PROPERLY FOR ACTUAL USE IN BATTLE. I WOULD THINK IT IS MORE LIKELY TO BE OF ASIAN DESIGN AND BUDHIST SPECIFICALLY. CHECK THE TWO DECORATIVE BUTTONS AS WELL AS THEY MAY BE OF SOME SIGNIFICANCE. THE CORD OR WIRE MAY SHED SOME INFORMATION AS WELL, IS IT SILK?. WITH A BIT OF RESEARCH SOME OF THIS KRIS STORY MAY BE REAVEALED. WITH A NEW HANDLE YOU WILL HAVE ANOTHER NICE BLADE WITH A NEW HANDLE.

AT PRESENT IT MAY NOT BE OF ABSOLUTE PURE FORM BUT IT IS A BIT OF A MYSTERY. IS THE WORKMANSHIP GOOD AND ARE THE METAL FITTINGS CHEAP OR DO THEY SHOW AGE AND GOOD WORKMANSHIP THIS SHOULD HELP TO DETERMINE YOUR COURSE OF ACTION. NICE ONE I LIKE IT.

ThePepperSkull · 12th June 2012, 07:16 AM

If it is indeed a hilt form from another culture, I will do my research and see what i can come up with.

Perhaps if I plan on restoring the Kris with cultural-approriate hilt, I will keep the old hilt intact as well. Perhaps try and find a blade more suited for it?

Or I may go with your suggestion, Vandoo, and just keep it as it is. If the hilt is indeed a distinct ethnographic form as opposed to a western replacement, it's bound to have an interesting story to it. If only these blades would speak.

Spunjer · 12th June 2012, 12:33 PM

i'm with vandoo... i don't understand what's the deal with throwing away the handle. it's obvious that it's not a traditional handle, but the moros of your has been known to use non-traditional items on their weapon. added a couple of pictures that have i not known the provenance of this particular shield, i would definitely thought of it as a western addition. the bottle bottom bosed is a pre-1898 shield. it would be a pity if you throw the handle away and somehow come to find out, this was original to the sword.
nice twisty core, brah! can't wait to see after you clean the blade. hopefully etched to bring out all her splendid beauty!!!

mross · 12th June 2012, 06:19 PM

I'm in favor of not messing with it. Here are some of my arguments;
1) From what the pics show the handle and wrap look well done.
2) There does appear to be some age to the rehilt, yes I know that can be faked
3) More importantly; the rehilit incorporated the ferrule and baca-baca. This means someone understood or at least wanted to preserve what was there. I lean toward someone knew what they were doing as these things have a habit of being removed and sold.
4) It's kinda a unique and someone went through some effort to do it that way which means it may have some history behind it.

All that said; nice piece! These are a favorite of mine, so I have fondness for them and like to see them preserved un-altered as much as possible.

kai · 12th June 2012, 10:46 PM

Hello Ron,

Quote:

it's obvious that it's not a traditional handle, but the moros of your has been known to use non-traditional items on their weapon.

I suspect this hilt make the kris pretty much dysfunctional.

I also have a very hard time to imagine any self-respecting Moro to come up with this weird pommel, a bad (smooth) grip wrapping, and, especially, with 2 human figures representing a kind of deity outside the Muslim realm? This just doesn't cut it, IMHO.

Regards,
Kai

12th June 2012, 12:33 PM	#6
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	i'm with vandoo... i don't understand what's the deal with throwing away the handle. it's obvious that it's not a traditional handle, but the moros of your has been known to use non-traditional items on their weapon. added a couple of pictures that have i not known the provenance of this particular shield, i would definitely thought of it as a western addition. the bottle bottom bosed is a pre-1898 shield. it would be a pity if you throw the handle away and somehow come to find out, this was original to the sword. nice twisty core, brah! can't wait to see after you clean the blade. hopefully etched to bring out all her splendid beauty!!! Attached Images

9th June 2012, 10:10 PM	#1
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,255	Congrats, that's really a neat find! Looks like an early 20th c. (or possibly turn of the century) kalis taluseko to me. Toss the pommel and grip binding (possibly everything except the ferrule and asang-asang); IMHO it looks like a unqualified western repair. Lucky you - a complete piece would have demanded a much higher price... And please post pics after you gave the blade a good cleaning and etching! Regards, Kai

10th June 2012, 09:43 PM	#2
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,270	I'm with Kai on this one. I also agree - keep the baka-baka and the ferrule, lose the rest of the hilt. However, I might say slightly older, perhaps no earlier than the 1860s?

11th June 2012, 09:17 PM	#3
ThePepperSkull Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 338	Thanks for the info, gents! I was thinking of keeping the ferrule and baca-baca, and replacing the rest of the hilt with a simple narra kakatua pommeled hilt with wrapping laquered black. I thought the hilt it had on now may have been a hilt form from another culture, but seeing as it is a western repair/re-hilt, I won't feel bad getting rid of the rest of it. Although, the metal buddha, etc pieces on the grip remind me of Japanese menuki. Possibly from a smaller blade like a tanto. Does anyone know if the buddha was a common type of menuki form used? I know the fudo myo-o was a figure that featured in a lot of old katana menuki, but the buddha I am not sure of.

12th June 2012, 02:23 AM	#4
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	I PERSONALLY WOULD LOOK INTO THIS ITEM A BIT MORE BEFORE I RUSHED TO DISCARDED THE CURRENT HANDLE AND MAKE IT MORE NORMAL. AT PRESENT IT IS UNIQUE AND FROM THE PICTURES THE HANDLE DOSEN'T LOOK LIKE SOME RECENT POORLY DONE JOB BY AN UNSKILLED WESTERNER. HOW IS THE BALANCE DOES THE HANDLE FIT THE BLADE PROPERLY FOR ACTUAL USE IN BATTLE. I WOULD THINK IT IS MORE LIKELY TO BE OF ASIAN DESIGN AND BUDHIST SPECIFICALLY. CHECK THE TWO DECORATIVE BUTTONS AS WELL AS THEY MAY BE OF SOME SIGNIFICANCE. THE CORD OR WIRE MAY SHED SOME INFORMATION AS WELL, IS IT SILK?. WITH A BIT OF RESEARCH SOME OF THIS KRIS STORY MAY BE REAVEALED. WITH A NEW HANDLE YOU WILL HAVE ANOTHER NICE BLADE WITH A NEW HANDLE. AT PRESENT IT MAY NOT BE OF ABSOLUTE PURE FORM BUT IT IS A BIT OF A MYSTERY. IS THE WORKMANSHIP GOOD AND ARE THE METAL FITTINGS CHEAP OR DO THEY SHOW AGE AND GOOD WORKMANSHIP THIS SHOULD HELP TO DETERMINE YOUR COURSE OF ACTION. NICE ONE I LIKE IT.

12th June 2012, 07:16 AM	#5
ThePepperSkull Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 338	If it is indeed a hilt form from another culture, I will do my research and see what i can come up with. Perhaps if I plan on restoring the Kris with cultural-approriate hilt, I will keep the old hilt intact as well. Perhaps try and find a blade more suited for it? Or I may go with your suggestion, Vandoo, and just keep it as it is. If the hilt is indeed a distinct ethnographic form as opposed to a western replacement, it's bound to have an interesting story to it. If only these blades would speak.

12th June 2012, 06:19 PM	#7
mross Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 478	I'm in favor of not messing with it. Here are some of my arguments; 1) From what the pics show the handle and wrap look well done. 2) There does appear to be some age to the rehilt, yes I know that can be faked 3) More importantly; the rehilit incorporated the ferrule and baca-baca. This means someone understood or at least wanted to preserve what was there. I lean toward someone knew what they were doing as these things have a habit of being removed and sold. 4) It's kinda a unique and someone went through some effort to do it that way which means it may have some history behind it. All that said; nice piece! These are a favorite of mine, so I have fondness for them and like to see them preserved un-altered as much as possible.