Navajas of the Galleons

M ELEY · 8th June 2012, 02:05 AM

Likewise, while not trying to split hairs, perhaps we need to more closely define who we are calling the 'crew'. I never meant to only concentrate attention on the common sailor on ships. We are in agreement that midshipmen and officers carried dirks in French/English/American crews. Who is to say what the officers of other navies carried (knives, navajas). When we see that some on these ships were likewise separate from the average sailor, such as the Royal Marine squads that served in the Tops and dispensed discipline on board, one can question what these soldier-types carried. On the Treasure Fleets, many of the Spaniards and Portuguese personnel on board were 'soldiers' and not crew. These men apparently always had their weapons at the ready to stave off pirate and enemy boarding. I will agree that knives on board ships was probably restrictive and not the rule, but I can't accept that they were non-existent in this setting-
Perhaps with more data in the future, I will feel confident to fully come aboard with the idea of "no knives, ever"-

Chris Evans · 8th June 2012, 02:32 AM

Gentlemen,

You all make observations that cannot be ignored, but we are moving away from the subject of this thread, namely the paper of Corey Malcolm.

He makes the following points re the folding knife which is the subject of his writing:

In line with such thinking, these items would have been useful not only for shaving but also as medical scalpels.

CE: As far as it goes, this is not contentious.

...But, in light of the many other needs aboard a ship at sea, and only a limited number of resources to cover them, did these knives really serve such specific purposes on the ships? Or were they much more versatile? The word navaja itself is certainly suggestive of this. The term is interchangeable for both folding knives and razors...... Just as today, sailors then would have found themselves relying heavily on an easily accessed, portable, personal “pocket” knife. Such a tool would serve any number of mundane uses throughout a typical day, such as cutting lines, peeling fruit, and cleaning fingernails.

CE: Here he makes a huge unwarranted leap of reasoning. Anybody who ever had to shave and sharpen a straight razor would know that this assertion is ridiculously impractical. Razors/scalpels are not all purpose tools and any attempt to press them into such service puts an and to their life as razors/scalpels. Their edges are extremely thin and delicate, fit for only the intended task. The claim that the term "navaja" was ambivalent does not change the physical realities.

The one blade, which was recovered as an epoxy cast from the marine concretion that formed around the original, is 13.2cm long, and 2.9cm at the widest point. The cutting edge has a slightly convex belly, and an examination of the sides shows a hollow grind...

CE: The blade is way too short for a weapon of any great consequence and the hollow grind is indicative of a razor. HGs were preferred for razors because they provided the thinnest edge possible. HG in the olden days was a difficult and time consuming process and was not found on utility knives until much later.

Though the point is not blunt, it is not particularly sharp. All of these characteristics suggest this knife was designed more for cutting than stabbing or piercing.... Holes for the hinge pin are barely 2mm in diameter.... The sheath was either broken or rotted over time, and is not quite complete....There is no evidence for a locking mechanism to hold the blade in place when it was opened....

CE: A frail construction and the absence of a lock! Hardly suggestive of anything but the lightest duties and certainly not the characteristics of a weapon grade or multi purpose clasp knife. And the case? Utilitarian/weapon grade folding knives were not carried in laboriously decorated cases/sheats, rather tucked in the belt. In any event, the brass work on the case shown is way too elaborate for an affordable sailor's knife.

....In the 16th century, navajas were carried regularly in the waistband.....

CE: Indeed, and the galleon in question was not wrecked in the 16th century, rather in the 17th!

In moments of anger, this handy tool could also become an easily accessed weapon.

CE: This is a most ridiculous leap in reasoning. To be sure, we know that barber's razors have been used as weapons of last resort, but so have blunt table knives, brooms and whatever, but does this make a case for these folders having found such generalized usage? Hardly.

....a significant number of folding-knife sheaths have been found..... The one blade, which was recovered.....

AND

The large number of navajas recovered from the 1622 galleons makes clear they were a common part of early 17thcentury shipboard life and because of this fact, as well as their versatility, were found well beyond just the surgeon’s tool kit.

CE: Am I missing something? A number of cases and one blade were recovered. No disputing that razors would have been common on a ship, but to conclude that these were all purpose tools and weapons is unjustifiable on the basis of the evidence presented.

Does anybody know if sailors shaved themselves or was this done by the barbers? Mirrors would have been very scarce....

A final comment: There is nothing in this paper that would suggest that these folders belonged to sailors, rather than officers/soldiers/barbers, OR that they simply formed part of the cargo.

Cheers
Chris

Chris Evans · 8th June 2012, 08:47 AM

Folks,

Went to the website of the Mel Fisher Maritime Museum and found a number of similar and very interesting papers, similar to the one being discussed here.

http://www.melfisher.org/1622fleetresearch.htm

There is one by the same author and titled Crime And Punishment On A Galleon, which gives us a bit of an idea about on board discipline. After reading it, I tend to concur even more with Dmitry that violent behaviour by sailors would not have been tolerated on a Spanish galleon and that this article undermines the author's suggestions re navajas and sailors.

Cheers
Chris

Chris Evans · 8th June 2012, 09:41 AM

Folks,

Here is an very informative paper on Spanish galleons and ship life organization.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/60556803/O...0-Osprey-Nv-96

Cheers
Chris

8th June 2012, 02:32 AM	#2
Chris Evans Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 685	Gentlemen, You all make observations that cannot be ignored, but we are moving away from the subject of this thread, namely the paper of Corey Malcolm. He makes the following points re the folding knife which is the subject of his writing: In line with such thinking, these items would have been useful not only for shaving but also as medical scalpels. CE: As far as it goes, this is not contentious. ...But, in light of the many other needs aboard a ship at sea, and only a limited number of resources to cover them, did these knives really serve such specific purposes on the ships? Or were they much more versatile? The word navaja itself is certainly suggestive of this. The term is interchangeable for both folding knives and razors...... Just as today, sailors then would have found themselves relying heavily on an easily accessed, portable, personal “pocket” knife. Such a tool would serve any number of mundane uses throughout a typical day, such as cutting lines, peeling fruit, and cleaning fingernails. CE: Here he makes a huge unwarranted leap of reasoning. Anybody who ever had to shave and sharpen a straight razor would know that this assertion is ridiculously impractical. Razors/scalpels are not all purpose tools and any attempt to press them into such service puts an and to their life as razors/scalpels. Their edges are extremely thin and delicate, fit for only the intended task. The claim that the term "navaja" was ambivalent does not change the physical realities. The one blade, which was recovered as an epoxy cast from the marine concretion that formed around the original, is 13.2cm long, and 2.9cm at the widest point. The cutting edge has a slightly convex belly, and an examination of the sides shows a hollow grind... CE: The blade is way too short for a weapon of any great consequence and the hollow grind is indicative of a razor. HGs were preferred for razors because they provided the thinnest edge possible. HG in the olden days was a difficult and time consuming process and was not found on utility knives until much later. Though the point is not blunt, it is not particularly sharp. All of these characteristics suggest this knife was designed more for cutting than stabbing or piercing.... Holes for the hinge pin are barely 2mm in diameter.... The sheath was either broken or rotted over time, and is not quite complete....There is no evidence for a locking mechanism to hold the blade in place when it was opened.... CE: A frail construction and the absence of a lock! Hardly suggestive of anything but the lightest duties and certainly not the characteristics of a weapon grade or multi purpose clasp knife. And the case? Utilitarian/weapon grade folding knives were not carried in laboriously decorated cases/sheats, rather tucked in the belt. In any event, the brass work on the case shown is way too elaborate for an affordable sailor's knife. ....In the 16th century, navajas were carried regularly in the waistband..... CE: Indeed, and the galleon in question was not wrecked in the 16th century, rather in the 17th! In moments of anger, this handy tool could also become an easily accessed weapon. CE: This is a most ridiculous leap in reasoning. To be sure, we know that barber's razors have been used as weapons of last resort, but so have blunt table knives, brooms and whatever, but does this make a case for these folders having found such generalized usage? Hardly. ....a significant number of folding-knife sheaths have been found..... The one* blade, which was recovered.....* AND The large number of navajas recovered from the 1622 galleons makes clear they were a common part of early 17thcentury shipboard life and because of this fact, as well as their versatility, were found well beyond just the surgeon’s tool kit. CE: Am I missing something? A number of cases and one blade were recovered. No disputing that razors would have been common on a ship, but to conclude that these were all purpose tools and weapons is unjustifiable on the basis of the evidence presented. Does anybody know if sailors shaved themselves or was this done by the barbers? Mirrors would have been very scarce.... A final comment: There is nothing in this paper that would suggest that these folders belonged to sailors, rather than officers/soldiers/barbers, OR that they simply formed part of the cargo. Cheers Chris Last edited by Chris Evans; 8th June 2012 at 02:45 AM.

8th June 2012, 02:05 AM	#1
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	Likewise, while not trying to split hairs, perhaps we need to more closely define who we are calling the 'crew'. I never meant to only concentrate attention on the common sailor on ships. We are in agreement that midshipmen and officers carried dirks in French/English/American crews. Who is to say what the officers of other navies carried (knives, navajas). When we see that some on these ships were likewise separate from the average sailor, such as the Royal Marine squads that served in the Tops and dispensed discipline on board, one can question what these soldier-types carried. On the Treasure Fleets, many of the Spaniards and Portuguese personnel on board were 'soldiers' and not crew. These men apparently always had their weapons at the ready to stave off pirate and enemy boarding. I will agree that knives on board ships was probably restrictive and not the rule, but I can't accept that they were non-existent in this setting- Perhaps with more data in the future, I will feel confident to fully come aboard with the idea of "no knives, ever"-

8th June 2012, 08:47 AM	#3
Chris Evans Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 685	Folks, Went to the website of the Mel Fisher Maritime Museum and found a number of similar and very interesting papers, similar to the one being discussed here. http://www.melfisher.org/1622fleetresearch.htm There is one by the same author and titled Crime And Punishment On A Galleon, which gives us a bit of an idea about on board discipline. After reading it, I tend to concur even more with Dmitry that violent behaviour by sailors would not have been tolerated on a Spanish galleon and that this article undermines the author's suggestions re navajas and sailors. Cheers Chris

8th June 2012, 09:41 AM	#4
Chris Evans Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 685	Folks, Here is an very informative paper on Spanish galleons and ship life organization. http://www.scribd.com/doc/60556803/O...0-Osprey-Nv-96 Cheers Chris