NORTHERN EUROPEAN HELMET ZISCHAGGE from the 17 TH Century URGENT NEED HELP !

Cerjak · 7th June 2012, 03:54 PM

[QUOTE=Matchlock]Hi Cerjak,

Thank you for taking the words right out of my mouth on preserving patina and causing as little surface change as possible!

I, too, have seen too many completely overcleaned and brutally ruined pieces and have often uttered my opinion here on the forum. There are different opinions on this matter however, which we all have to accept in the end.

And: as long as museum people keep killing patina and presenting surfaces shining 'as new' - which those items mostly had not when they were actually new hundreds of years ago! - the collector's view will be spoiled and he too will tend to follow the 'example' given by so-called 'authorities' and will kill the surfaces of his weapons as well ...

Finally, you are absolutely correct about the fact that the solid quality of your Zischagge cannot be compared with the lesser items I posted, so you really should not worry about paying more!

Dear Michael

Once again could you give me your opinion for this helmet said to be a German Helmet From early 17 th century.
In my eyes it seems to be a nice one but I always afraid to do a mistake.
I hope you could help me ...
Best regards
Cerjak

Matchlock · 7th June 2012, 04:31 PM

Hi Cerjak,

Thank your for trusting me that much but as I have stated various times, pieces of armor are not exactly my field of expertise.

Telling by your photos though, I would say the helmet looks very good and original; it reminds me of similar helmets which are part of late field armor (Feldkürisse), Thirty Years War, in the famous Graz Armory; many of them were supplied by a Styrian maker in 1635, so a date of ca. 1620-30 seems quite right for your helmet.

It also seems close in style to a Savoy helmet.

I do hope this will help a bit.

Best,
Michael

Cerjak · 7th June 2012, 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matchlock

Hi Czerjak,

Thank your for trusting me that much but as I have stated various times, pieces of armor are not exactly my field of expertise.

Telling by your photos though, I would say the helmet looks very good and original; it reminds me of similar helmets which are part of late field armor (Feldkürisse), Thirty Years War, in the famous Graz Armory; many of them were supplied by a Styrian maker in 1635, so a date of ca. 1620-30 seems quite right for your helmet.

I do hope this will help a bit.

Best,
Michael

Michael

Of course your opinion will help me ! and it is very nice to receive it so quickly I was lucky.
Thank you to be so active in this forum

cerjak

Matchlock · 7th June 2012, 05:16 PM

Thanks again, Cerjak,

I add two scans from the basic book Europäische Helme (European Helmets) by Heinrich Müller and Fritz Kunter, Berlin, 1984; the first scan depicts so-called Mantelhelme of the Thirty Years War period. I could not find the English equivalent of that term.

As you are interested in helmets you should consider purchasing it.

Best,
m

Cerjak · 7th June 2012, 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matchlock

Thanks again, Cerjak,

I add two scans from the basic book Europäische Helme (European Helmets) by Heinrich Müller and Fritz Kunter, Berlin, 1984; the first scan depicts so-called Mantelhelme of the Thirty Years War period. I could not find the English equivalent of that term.

As you are interested in helmets you should consider purchasing it.

Best,
m

Michael

Always good advice I must buy it

Cerjak

Matchlock · 7th June 2012, 05:38 PM

It is offered extremely cheap here:

http://www.booklooker.de/B%FCcher/M%...2a4071dde478bc

I also found this Wikipedia article on zishagges:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capeline

They are considered to have replaced the older type of Mantelheme in the course of the Thirty Years War.

m

Cerjak · 7th June 2012, 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matchlock

It is offered extremely cheap here:

http://www.booklooker.de/B%FCcher/M%...2a4071dde478bc

I also found this Wikipedia article on zishagges:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capeline

They are considered to have replaced the older type of Mantelheme in the course of the Thirty Years War.

m

you are really to good with me again thank you !
I sould buy this helmet tomorow I will let you know

Cerjak

theswordcollector · 16th January 2016, 09:12 PM

Hello ,
In my opinion this is a modern copy that is made in England I have been burned on a similar example from Nottingham England from a E bay seller over 20 years ago. They make these helmets to current day. I am 100% sure this is a 20th century modern copy. I had the same rivets on my helmet also .

theswordcollector · 16th January 2016, 09:25 PM

Hello ,

In my professional opinion this is a modern copy that is made in England. I naively due to bad photos was burned on a similar example sold from Nottingham England from an E bay seller over 20 + years ago to the tune of $2000 . They make these helmets to current day. I am 100% sure this is a late 20th century modern copy. I had the same rivets on my helmet , nasal bar and leather exactly .I don't care what any so called experts say or references of fake helmets sold by reputable people and auctions , this helmet is modern for sure. It would be nice to see some knowledgeable people on this forum who actually own real objects rather than all the google experts that contribute b.s. info.

7th June 2012, 03:54 PM	#1
Cerjak Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: FRANCE Posts: 1,065	New helmet [QUOTE=Matchlock]Hi Cerjak, Thank you for taking the words right out of my mouth on preserving patina and causing as little surface change as possible! I, too, have seen too many completely overcleaned and brutally ruined pieces and have often uttered my opinion here on the forum. There are different opinions on this matter however, which we all have to accept in the end. And: as long as museum people keep killing patina and presenting surfaces shining 'as new' - which those items mostly had not when they were actually new hundreds of years ago! - the collector's view will be spoiled and he too will tend to follow the 'example' given by so-called 'authorities' and will kill the surfaces of his weapons as well ... Finally, you are absolutely correct about the fact that the solid quality of your Zischagge cannot be compared with the lesser items I posted, so you really should not worry about paying more! Dear Michael Once again could you give me your opinion for this helmet said to be a German Helmet From early 17 th century. In my eyes it seems to be a nice one but I always afraid to do a mistake. I hope you could help me ... Best regards Cerjak Attached Images

7th June 2012, 04:31 PM	#2
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Cerjak, Thank your for trusting me that much but as I have stated various times, pieces of armor are not exactly my field of expertise. Telling by your photos though, I would say the helmet looks very good and original; it reminds me of similar helmets which are part of late field armor (Feldkürisse), Thirty Years War, in the famous Graz Armory; many of them were supplied by a Styrian maker in 1635, so a date of ca. 1620-30 seems quite right for your helmet. It also seems close in style to a Savoy helmet. I do hope this will help a bit. Best, Michael Attached Images Last edited by Matchlock; 7th June 2012 at 04:56 PM.

7th June 2012, 05:16 PM	#4
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Thanks again, Cerjak, I add two scans from the basic book Europäische Helme (European Helmets) by Heinrich Müller and Fritz Kunter, Berlin, 1984; the first scan depicts so-called Mantelhelme of the Thirty Years War period. I could not find the English equivalent of that term. As you are interested in helmets you should consider purchasing it. Best, m Attached Images

16th January 2016, 09:12 PM	#8
theswordcollector Member Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Berlin Posts: 48	England Hello , In my opinion this is a modern copy that is made in England I have been burned on a similar example from Nottingham England from a E bay seller over 20 years ago. They make these helmets to current day. I am 100% sure this is a 20th century modern copy. I had the same rivets on my helmet also .

16th January 2016, 09:25 PM	#9
theswordcollector Member Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Berlin Posts: 48	NORTHERN EUROPEAN HELMET ZISCHAGGE Hello , In my professional opinion this is a modern copy that is made in England. I naively due to bad photos was burned on a similar example sold from Nottingham England from an E bay seller over 20 + years ago to the tune of $2000 . They make these helmets to current day. I am 100% sure this is a late 20th century modern copy. I had the same rivets on my helmet , nasal bar and leather exactly .I don't care what any so called experts say or references of fake helmets sold by reputable people and auctions , this helmet is modern for sure. It would be nice to see some knowledgeable people on this forum who actually own real objects rather than all the google experts that contribute b.s. info.

7th June 2012, 05:38 PM	#6
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	It is offered extremely cheap here: http://www.booklooker.de/B%FCcher/M%...2a4071dde478bc I also found this Wikipedia article on zishagges: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capeline They are considered to have replaced the older type of Mantelheme in the course of the Thirty Years War. m