Pala Kilic Wootz? with European Hilt.

Norman McCormick · 6th June 2012, 11:18 PM

Hi,
I e-mailed the Heeresgeschichtliches Museum (Museum of Military History) in Vienna regarding the origins of this sword, the reply is below. I would certainly agree that the blade and hilt were not made originally for one another and the explanation that Mr Ilming gives is one that seems reasonable and obviously not unknown. If anyone else has a view, contradictory or otherwise, I would be pleased to hear from you.
Regards to All,
Norman.

Dear Sir!

I think the blade of this sword will have belonged to a different one, before it was mounted with the hilt it has now.
The blade was perhaps part of a booty in the wars between Austria and the Ottoman Empire in the 18th century, and handed down in the family of the person who captured it, until it was used by one of his descendants in the combination you have now purchased.

This happened quite often within the nobility, where almost every male member of those families in every generation served as an officer in the army. By this way such “hereditary blades” were preserved over the centuries.

I hope, this response is of some help for you. Please do not hesitate to contact me again, if you have some further questions.

Mit freundlichen Grüßen
Ing. Mag. Thomas Ilming
Leiter Referat WaTe (Waffen und Technik)
Heeresgeschichtliches Museum
A-1030 Wien, Arsenal, Objekt 1
Tel.: +43 / (0)1/ 79561 - 1060320
Mobil: +43 / (0)664/ 8876 3850
Fax: +43 / (0)1/ 79561 - 1017707

Kubur · 13th July 2015, 07:07 PM

Hi Guys,

Sorry to resuscitate this old thread, but I' m really excited to share with you some results that I got after some researches. A Pala was recently sold at a famous Italian auction house. I was intrigued by the script on the blade, it looked like Arab but it wasn't. It was clearly done by a non Arab speaker. Then I found this thread, but no more. Your so-called Austrian sword had the same kind of script on the blade. But the conclusion was that the blade was probably an Ottoman blade. I was still frustrated and finaly I found a pala almost identical but with an ivory grip. From this pala I traced a link with a sword at the Wallace Museum... with the same decorations and the same script.
Austria
1846
Steel, wood, turquoises, silver and gold, embossed, engraved and etched
Length: 93.5 cm
Weight: 0.76 kg, without scabbard
Hallmark: Vienna mark and '1846'
Inscription
OA1753
Oriental Armoury
My conclusion is now more simple and clear, I think all these swords, blades and hilts are Austrian copies of Ottoman palas. What do you think?
Best,
Kubur

spiral · 13th July 2015, 08:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

What do you think?

Wish I had one...

Norman McCormick · 13th July 2015, 08:52 PM

Hi Kubur,
A quick reply as I'm going out at the moment. The script doesn't look the same to me but I'm open to some elucidation.
My Regards,
Norman.

Sancar · 14th July 2015, 07:48 AM

Indeed!

Quote:

Originally Posted by spiral

Wish I had one...

Kubur · 14th July 2015, 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sancar

Indeed!

Hi Spiral & Sancar,
I'm still looking for a descent one, for a descent price...
Hard to find

Kubur

Jim McDougall · 14th July 2015, 05:12 PM

Well done Kubur!!! Thank you for reviving this fascinating item and thread, and especially for the outstanding follow up.
I am very much in accord with your suggestion this is quite likely an Austrian 'tribute' type weapon. It seems that the tradition of 'oriental' styles with Eastern European countries swords is of course long standing, and we see the Ottoman style hilts on many of their sabres, the Polish versions of karabela notwithstanding.

I think it would be worth recalling the many auxiliary units in the Austrian and other armies such as the Freikorps, which evolved out of the famed 'Pandour' regiments of Maria Theresa's forces in the mid 18th c.
These units became popular in the Austrian and other European armies some time after the disbanding of von Trencks units in 1750s.
The weaponry and fashions of these units was quite 'exotic' and favored of course many Ottoman forms and styles. It would seem these lavishly decorated sabres posted here might fall into such category.

If I am not mistaken, in Solingen I believe, there were some efforts in producing 'watered steel' blades in the manner of wootz, but I have so little knowledge of details I cannot go further. I am wondering however, if this situation could account for such blades in these interpretative ( and magnificent!) examples.

In the last images, the blade with notching in the blade back reminds me of the curious notches in blades on Scottish skean dhub knives, I think it is termed 'jimpul' . Not suggesting any connection but thought an interesting note.

spiral · 15th July 2015, 11:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

Hi Spiral & Sancar,
I'm still looking for a descent one, for a descent price...
Hard to find

Kubur

Indeed, I think Normans got the best one....

Spiral

13th July 2015, 07:07 PM	#2
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Hi Guys, Sorry to resuscitate this old thread, but I' m really excited to share with you some results that I got after some researches. A Pala was recently sold at a famous Italian auction house. I was intrigued by the script on the blade, it looked like Arab but it wasn't. It was clearly done by a non Arab speaker. Then I found this thread, but no more. Your so-called Austrian sword had the same kind of script on the blade. But the conclusion was that the blade was probably an Ottoman blade. I was still frustrated and finaly I found a pala almost identical but with an ivory grip. From this pala I traced a link with a sword at the Wallace Museum... with the same decorations and the same script. Austria 1846 Steel, wood, turquoises, silver and gold, embossed, engraved and etched Length: 93.5 cm Weight: 0.76 kg, without scabbard Hallmark: Vienna mark and '1846' Inscription OA1753 Oriental Armoury My conclusion is now more simple and clear, I think all these swords, blades and hilts are Austrian copies of Ottoman palas. What do you think? Best, Kubur Attached Images

6th June 2012, 11:18 PM	#1
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,613	Hi, I e-mailed the Heeresgeschichtliches Museum (Museum of Military History) in Vienna regarding the origins of this sword, the reply is below. I would certainly agree that the blade and hilt were not made originally for one another and the explanation that Mr Ilming gives is one that seems reasonable and obviously not unknown. If anyone else has a view, contradictory or otherwise, I would be pleased to hear from you. Regards to All, Norman. Dear Sir! I think the blade of this sword will have belonged to a different one, before it was mounted with the hilt it has now. The blade was perhaps part of a booty in the wars between Austria and the Ottoman Empire in the 18th century, and handed down in the family of the person who captured it, until it was used by one of his descendants in the combination you have now purchased. This happened quite often within the nobility, where almost every male member of those families in every generation served as an officer in the army. By this way such “hereditary blades” were preserved over the centuries. I hope, this response is of some help for you. Please do not hesitate to contact me again, if you have some further questions. Mit freundlichen Grüßen Ing. Mag. Thomas Ilming Leiter Referat WaTe (Waffen und Technik) Heeresgeschichtliches Museum A-1030 Wien, Arsenal, Objekt 1 Tel.: +43 / (0)1/ 79561 - 1060320 Mobil: +43 / (0)664/ 8876 3850 Fax: +43 / (0)1/ 79561 - 1017707

13th July 2015, 08:52 PM	#4
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,613	Hi Kubur, A quick reply as I'm going out at the moment. The script doesn't look the same to me but I'm open to some elucidation. My Regards, Norman.

14th July 2015, 05:12 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,190	Well done Kubur!!! Thank you for reviving this fascinating item and thread, and especially for the outstanding follow up. I am very much in accord with your suggestion this is quite likely an Austrian 'tribute' type weapon. It seems that the tradition of 'oriental' styles with Eastern European countries swords is of course long standing, and we see the Ottoman style hilts on many of their sabres, the Polish versions of karabela notwithstanding. I think it would be worth recalling the many auxiliary units in the Austrian and other armies such as the Freikorps, which evolved out of the famed 'Pandour' regiments of Maria Theresa's forces in the mid 18th c. These units became popular in the Austrian and other European armies some time after the disbanding of von Trencks units in 1750s. The weaponry and fashions of these units was quite 'exotic' and favored of course many Ottoman forms and styles. It would seem these lavishly decorated sabres posted here might fall into such category. If I am not mistaken, in Solingen I believe, there were some efforts in producing 'watered steel' blades in the manner of wootz, but I have so little knowledge of details I cannot go further. I am wondering however, if this situation could account for such blades in these interpretative ( and magnificent!) examples. In the last images, the blade with notching in the blade back reminds me of the curious notches in blades on Scottish skean dhub knives, I think it is termed 'jimpul' . Not suggesting any connection but thought an interesting note.