Tabak?

Rick · 6th June 2012, 01:59 AM

Oh yes, made from a file .

What I really like about this example is the scabbard embossing .
I find it to be a bit out of the ordinary and quite nice !

Congratulations on this one Detlef .

Lew, that is a very interesting motto on your blade, "Philippino War Knife"

D'you suppose that was added after the fact to your excellent example ?

The piece is absolutely correct, but "Krieg " ??

Or does it say "Knife" ?

Lew · 6th June 2012, 03:54 AM

Actually Rick the 31st was stationed in the Philippines in 1918 and the initials are from the sellers great uncle who was stationed in the Philippines in 1918. I've been in contact with the curator at Fort Drum and he said he would love to have it for the war museum. Of course someone must have polished the blade at one point

.

http://www.drum.army.mil/AboutFortDr...useum_lv2.aspx

Btw it's knife

VANDOO · 6th June 2012, 03:59 AM

SEVERAL GREAT EXAMPLES SHOWN HERE NOT THE ONES WITH FANCY INLAYED BLADES OR CARVED HANDLES WITH SILVER BUT THE LEATHER SHEATHS ARE FIRST QUALITY ON SOME AND ALL ARE GOOD WORKING EXAMPLES.
THIS MAKES ME WONDER IF THIS DEGREE OF LEATHER WORK ORIGINATED WITH THE SPANISH PRESENCE WHO NO DOUBT COULD HAVE TAUGHT THE CRAFT TO LOCAL PHILIPINOS. THE WORKMANSHIP LOOKS SIMULAR TO SOME SPANISH WORK AND I THINK LEATHER WAS MORE IN USE IN SPAIN THAN IN THE PHILIPPINES. JUST CONJECTURE BUT IT SEEMS POSSIBLE TO ME AS WOOD SCABBARDS WOULD GENERALLY HOLD UP BETTER IN A DAMP CLIMATE AND BE EASILY AVAILABLE WHERE A LEATHER INDUSTRY MAY HAVE NOT DEVELOPED TO A LARGE EXTENT AS A RESULT. ALSO A LOT LESS CATTLE IN THE PHILIPPINES.

Lew · 6th June 2012, 04:05 AM

Maybe water buffalo leather?

Lew · 6th June 2012, 04:14 AM

This is another style of bolo from Pampanga the tip was broken off but still from the same period.

Sajen · 6th June 2012, 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lew

Maybe water buffalo leather?

Most probable yes!

Indianajones · 6th June 2012, 10:54 AM

Hello, Vandoo has actually a very good remark that I also never thought about before; that the leather sheats are (sort of) introduced by the Spanish. Personally I dont think the leather used is from the native carabao/waterbuffalo as am really not sure if the filipinos knew how to make leather from hide (intricate proces).
Than I guess the file would also be of Spanish origins?!
This Tabak would date before the resistance against the Spanish I reckon. As most examples after (katipunan) would have a handle carved as a fist or an officershead (wright?).

Again, a real gem Sajen! Who wouldnt want to own such a piece!?

Lew · 6th June 2012, 03:30 PM

Philippinos didn't know how to process leather? They have been forging some of the finest blades for two hundred years or more. This takes a lot of skill understanding complex heat treatments and welding skills and to say that they didn't have the skills processing leather for scabbards is ridiculous.

VANDOO · 6th June 2012, 06:25 PM

WHY KILL A SCARCE COMODITY LIKE A WATER BUFFALOW WHICH IS NECESSARY FOR HAULING CARTS, WORKING RICE PADDYS ECT TO MAKE LEATHER.? CARABO WERE SOMETIMES SACRIFICED FOR SPECIAL OCCASIONS BUT TO MY KNOWLEGE WERE NOT A COMMON OR PLENTIFUL FOOD SOURCE BEFORE THE SPANISH CAME. WOOD SCABBARDS ARE WIDESPREAD, CLOTHES ARE NOT MADE OF LEATHER IN THE PHILIPPINES SO PERHAPS TANNING GOOD LEATHER WAS NOT DEVELOPED AS IT DID NOT SERVE A NEED IN THE AREA.

THE SPANISH ON THE OTHER HAVE MADE LEATHER FOR A LONG TIME IN THEIR HISTORY. CATTLE HAVE SERVED THE PURPOSE OF A MAIN FOOD SOURCE, SO HIDES WERE READILY AVAILABLE. THE CLIMATE IN SPAIN IS MUCH BETTER FOR LEATHER PRODUCTS WHICH GO BACK AT LEAST TO ROMAN TIMES. THE PHILIPPINES WERE NOT EXPOSED TO ROME BUT CERTIANLY TO SPAIN WHO ARE A LIKELY SOURCE FOR LEATHER WHICH WOULD THEN HAVE BEEN ADAPTED BY THE PHILIPPINOS WORKING FOR THEM. JUST MY THOUGHTS AND LOGIC STRANGE THOUGH IT MAY BE

THE OTHER POSSIBLE CULTURAL SOURCE FOR LEATHER WOULD HAVE BEEN THE MOORISH EMPIRE WHICH PRODUCED GOOD LEATHER AND HAD ARMOR WHICH LIKELY INCORPORATED SOME LEATHER PARTS AS DID THE SPANISH ARMOR. SO PERHAPS LEATHER WAS INTRODUCED BY THE MOORS IN MINDANAO AND LATER BY THE SPANISH IN LUZON?
I SUSPECT MOST NATIVE PHILIPPINOS CONTINUED TO MAKE WOOD SCABBARDS AND HAD LITTLE USE FOR LEATHER EXCEPT FOR SOME OF THE POORLY CURED HIDES WITH HAIR ON THEM FOUND ON SOME ARTEFACTS IN THE PHILIPPINES.
GADDS!! I PROBABLY SHOULD HAVE STARTED ANOTHER POST FOR THIS. PERHAPS A MODERATOR WOULD LIKE TO MOVE THIS AND START A SEPARATE DISCUSSION POST.

Sajen · 6th June 2012, 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VANDOO

SEVERAL GREAT EXAMPLES SHOWN HERE NOT THE ONES WITH FANCY INLAYED BLADES OR CARVED HANDLES WITH SILVER BUT THE LEATHER SHEATHS ARE FIRST QUALITY ON SOME AND ALL ARE GOOD WORKING EXAMPLES.

Agree!

Sajen · 6th June 2012, 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Oh yes, made from a file .

What I really like about this example is the scabbard embossing .
I find it to be a bit out of the ordinary and quite nice !

Congratulations on this one Detlef .

Thank you Rick, yes the embossing is very nice and after the maintenance it look now much better as before.

Regards,

Detlef

6th June 2012, 04:14 AM	#5
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	This is another style of bolo from Pampanga the tip was broken off but still from the same period. Attached Images

6th June 2012, 01:59 AM	#1
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	Oh yes, made from a file . What I really like about this example is the scabbard embossing . I find it to be a bit out of the ordinary and quite nice ! Congratulations on this one Detlef . Lew, that is a very interesting motto on your blade, "Philippino War Knife" D'you suppose that was added after the fact to your excellent example ? The piece is absolutely correct, but "Krieg " ?? Or does it say "Knife" ?

6th June 2012, 03:54 AM	#2
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Actually Rick the 31st was stationed in the Philippines in 1918 and the initials are from the sellers great uncle who was stationed in the Philippines in 1918. I've been in contact with the curator at Fort Drum and he said he would love to have it for the war museum. Of course someone must have polished the blade at one point . http://www.drum.army.mil/AboutFortDr...useum_lv2.aspx Btw it's knife

6th June 2012, 03:59 AM	#3
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	SEVERAL GREAT EXAMPLES SHOWN HERE NOT THE ONES WITH FANCY INLAYED BLADES OR CARVED HANDLES WITH SILVER BUT THE LEATHER SHEATHS ARE FIRST QUALITY ON SOME AND ALL ARE GOOD WORKING EXAMPLES. THIS MAKES ME WONDER IF THIS DEGREE OF LEATHER WORK ORIGINATED WITH THE SPANISH PRESENCE WHO NO DOUBT COULD HAVE TAUGHT THE CRAFT TO LOCAL PHILIPINOS. THE WORKMANSHIP LOOKS SIMULAR TO SOME SPANISH WORK AND I THINK LEATHER WAS MORE IN USE IN SPAIN THAN IN THE PHILIPPINES. JUST CONJECTURE BUT IT SEEMS POSSIBLE TO ME AS WOOD SCABBARDS WOULD GENERALLY HOLD UP BETTER IN A DAMP CLIMATE AND BE EASILY AVAILABLE WHERE A LEATHER INDUSTRY MAY HAVE NOT DEVELOPED TO A LARGE EXTENT AS A RESULT. ALSO A LOT LESS CATTLE IN THE PHILIPPINES.

6th June 2012, 04:05 AM	#4
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Maybe water buffalo leather?

6th June 2012, 10:54 AM	#7
Indianajones Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 180	Hello, Vandoo has actually a very good remark that I also never thought about before; that the leather sheats are (sort of) introduced by the Spanish. Personally I dont think the leather used is from the native carabao/waterbuffalo as am really not sure if the filipinos knew how to make leather from hide (intricate proces). Than I guess the file would also be of Spanish origins?! This Tabak would date before the resistance against the Spanish I reckon. As most examples after (katipunan) would have a handle carved as a fist or an officershead (wright?). Again, a real gem Sajen! Who wouldnt want to own such a piece!?

6th June 2012, 03:30 PM	#8
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Philippinos didn't know how to process leather? They have been forging some of the finest blades for two hundred years or more. This takes a lot of skill understanding complex heat treatments and welding skills and to say that they didn't have the skills processing leather for scabbards is ridiculous.

6th June 2012, 06:25 PM	#9
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	WHY KILL A SCARCE COMODITY LIKE A WATER BUFFALOW WHICH IS NECESSARY FOR HAULING CARTS, WORKING RICE PADDYS ECT TO MAKE LEATHER.? CARABO WERE SOMETIMES SACRIFICED FOR SPECIAL OCCASIONS BUT TO MY KNOWLEGE WERE NOT A COMMON OR PLENTIFUL FOOD SOURCE BEFORE THE SPANISH CAME. WOOD SCABBARDS ARE WIDESPREAD, CLOTHES ARE NOT MADE OF LEATHER IN THE PHILIPPINES SO PERHAPS TANNING GOOD LEATHER WAS NOT DEVELOPED AS IT DID NOT SERVE A NEED IN THE AREA. THE SPANISH ON THE OTHER HAVE MADE LEATHER FOR A LONG TIME IN THEIR HISTORY. CATTLE HAVE SERVED THE PURPOSE OF A MAIN FOOD SOURCE, SO HIDES WERE READILY AVAILABLE. THE CLIMATE IN SPAIN IS MUCH BETTER FOR LEATHER PRODUCTS WHICH GO BACK AT LEAST TO ROMAN TIMES. THE PHILIPPINES WERE NOT EXPOSED TO ROME BUT CERTIANLY TO SPAIN WHO ARE A LIKELY SOURCE FOR LEATHER WHICH WOULD THEN HAVE BEEN ADAPTED BY THE PHILIPPINOS WORKING FOR THEM. JUST MY THOUGHTS AND LOGIC STRANGE THOUGH IT MAY BE THE OTHER POSSIBLE CULTURAL SOURCE FOR LEATHER WOULD HAVE BEEN THE MOORISH EMPIRE WHICH PRODUCED GOOD LEATHER AND HAD ARMOR WHICH LIKELY INCORPORATED SOME LEATHER PARTS AS DID THE SPANISH ARMOR. SO PERHAPS LEATHER WAS INTRODUCED BY THE MOORS IN MINDANAO AND LATER BY THE SPANISH IN LUZON? I SUSPECT MOST NATIVE PHILIPPINOS CONTINUED TO MAKE WOOD SCABBARDS AND HAD LITTLE USE FOR LEATHER EXCEPT FOR SOME OF THE POORLY CURED HIDES WITH HAIR ON THEM FOUND ON SOME ARTEFACTS IN THE PHILIPPINES. GADDS!! I PROBABLY SHOULD HAVE STARTED ANOTHER POST FOR THIS. PERHAPS A MODERATOR WOULD LIKE TO MOVE THIS AND START A SEPARATE DISCUSSION POST.