Navajas of the Galleons

[Rick]

In a time when even giving your superior a wry look would buy you a flogging; I have got to agree about this form not being a Sailor's knife .

[Chris Evans]

Dmtry,

Fernando beat me to it (I was asleep down under!)


Fernando,

Thank you.

Cheers
Chris

[M ELEY]

Thank you gents for finally clearing this issue up for me. As you know, many naval references are being updated and the older manuals still mention these as side knives. It makes sense that the cargoes of these lost ships would have been carrying knives and razors to the New World, and their discovery on the wrecks lead to the confusion. The same goes for the large groups of un-hilted sword blades often found. However, I'd bet a silver cobb or two that there were pirates/privateers that carried them-

[fernando]

I wouldn't digest this thing of sailors not being allowed to carry knives without some extra mastication.
The reasoning of, only crew members with an appointed craft be allowed to use them, is perhaps a bit ambiguous.
I am too lazy to browse the books looking for evidence, but in a first thought i would say that, the majority of sailors aboard had one or more crafts to perform; in a way that was the (multi) purpose of professional sailors. Maybe not mechanic jobs like carpentry, or fixing the water pumps, but mending sails, tying ropes and that sort of things. I can not imagine a sailor without a knife; not a folding knife, with a concealing intent, but a tool knife, for a zillion needs inherent from being aboard ship.
If a mutiny had to take place, it was not the knife which played the nuclear key for such decision. Lots of devices found aboard could be used as weapons. Even admiting that only selected artisans could bear knives, this would not be a secure way to prevent mutiny ... either in their own hands or grabed by other men.
Discipline aboard and contention of conflicts passed by other measures.
Besides rank sailors, ships garrison was more diverse, including soldiers and artillery men ... although firearms and gun powder were kept locked and only distributed in case of iminent combat.
Concerning the social status of crew members, ironically were the soldiers that were "drafted" in streets, taverns or prisons and not sailors, as these would have to be more qualified for the job. Soldiers were not so much required to know how to shoot a musket or handle a pike, as sailors had to undoubtedly know how to operate a ship.
In this last one (and half) paragraph i am citing the chroniclers.

[Chris Evans]

Hi,

I think that a key consideration here is the weapon potential of an early, that is pre XVIII century, navaja. As far as I can make it out, in the absence of reliable diagrams/paintings and surviving specimens, this has to remain a moot point.

Forton thought that the XVII century navajas had weapon potential but did not advance evidence for this and given that all extant specimens that could fill this role pertain to the post Borbon ascent, I remain unconvinced.

This is not to say that simple, non-locking friction type folders were not around before the 1700s, as they were for centuries, but rather that these would not have served as weapons of any significance. Without a lock, a folding knife is not a weapon, as evidenced by current UK legislation.

Cheers
Chris

[M ELEY]

Fernando, you got my brain working again! Thank you
In multiple books and manuals on naval "tools", I've seen small knives carried by sailors for a variety of ship-board purposes. The knives were used for whittling, scrimshaw, fraying rope, sharpening fids, etc, etc. I understand that perhaps navajas were not allowed and likewise as Chris points out, not around at the early date specified, but there were definitely side knives at sea. A recent book I read concerning punishments at sea even mentioned sailors killed in knife fighting on the ship, with the transgressors being hung from the yardarm. Perhaps these knives were smuggled aboard? Come to think of it, in this circumstance, I believe it was a merchant vessel...

[Dmitry]

Originally Posted by Chris Evans

This is not to say that simple, non-locking friction type folders were not around before the 1700s, as they were for centuries, but rather that these would not have served as weapons of any significance. Without a lock, a folding knife is not a weapon, as evidenced by current UK legislation.

Cheers
Chris

Chris, to what period would you date the earliest locking folding knives? Any extant examples of the really early stuff?

[Chris Evans]

Dmtry,

Originally Posted by Dmitry

Chris, to what period would you date the earliest locking folding knives? Any extant examples of the really early stuff?

This is a very difficult question to answer with any certainty, principally, because there is not a single known and reliably dated surviving specimen that predates the XVIII century, save for one made in 1699 and which is not a weapon, nor am I aware of any paintings or other artistict depictions that show people carrying one in earlier times.

However, the technology of the lock found on later navajas, IMO, could have been easily replicated by the end of the XVI century, given the advanced state of metal working and lockworks in general. So why didn't we have locking navajas earlier on? I tend to agree with Forton that as long as better weapons were available, there was simply no need for clasp knives, which IMO even at their best are vastly inferior to fixed blades.

Where I differ with him, at least until some contrary evidence is presented, is that he ascribes the adoption of a non specific weapon grade folder to the beginnings of the XVII century, whereas on the evidence available, it was after the Borbon ascent that a credible weapon grade folder became widely used in Spain.

Of course, it is entirely possible that substantial primitive folders came gradually into use in the course of the XVII century and that these could somehow be crudely locked out for use as a weapon on the odd occasion, but why do this if better weapons were available? Here we need some proof that effective and enforced weapon bans, other than restricting swords to the nobility, were in place before the Borbons.

It is a while that I read Forton's book with due attention, but with all its faults it remains the most highly regarded work on the subject. It examines the navaja in various contexts, one being the legal and devotes quite a bit of space to it. Remembering that he graduated as a lawyer, I find it curious that all the anti C&T weapon ordenances and laws that he quotes were post 1700 and this reinforces my belief.

Cheers
Chris

[Dmitry]

Originally Posted by fernando

Concerning the social status of crew members, ironically were the soldiers that were "drafted" in streets, taverns or prisons and not sailors

That is not the case. Sailors were pressed onto ships en masse, not all of course, but significant numbers. That's the main reason that most were not allowed to disembark when in port, or they would inevitably run off. Whores were brought on board instead.
Much valuable information on the life of sailors in the age of sail exists.

BTW, scrimshaw is not done with a knife, it's scratched into the ivory with a sharp needle, also called a scribe.