Nicely carved Madurese hilt with Chinese Motif

John · 3rd September 2005, 07:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BluErf

The last possible example I remember is in John's collection. Its an ivory hilt with deep carved floral panels. Maybe if John would post pictures?

Certainly Blu.

I'm no expert in Chinese motifs but for the sake of this interesting discussion, the swastika is commonly seen in Chinese motifs (but also Japanese, Korean etc?) as a Buddhist element (also bearing in mind the Buddhist Borobudur in Java is a millenium old) but also an import to the Chinese and the rest as BluErf also surmised and the strange dragon with wing is not something I've seen in anything Chinese thus far but there may be the remote possibility of the strange amalgamation of things...

John · 4th September 2005, 04:14 AM

Rsword, just looking at the swastika design in isolation, the Chinese influence/architecture of design appears to be there, I have to now agree. In looking at the swastika on the scabbard again, the lines look uncannily similar and about 45 degrees gradient similar to that of the hilts so I guess you're right in saying you're not convinced the Chinese influence ain't there based on the similarities with your example. But again, another superficial view on my part.

nechesh · 4th September 2005, 06:36 AM

I would like to refer you all to the book Spirit of Wood. Examples of the use of both the swastika and the endless knot pattern in Malay culture can be seen there. Pg. 45 shows ventilation panels in the walls of Masjid Wadi Husin at Telok Manok. The caption states that "the swastika was commonly adopted in Malay culture as a symbol of protection." Pg. 78 also shows another wall from this ancient mosque which also incorporates the "endless knot" as a window panel.
BTW, swastikas are to be found in cultures all around the world, including Amerindian. While it is most likely the swastika was imported into the Malay world it should be noted that it seems to have developed independently in many parts of the world.Generally it held the same symbolism as a solar energy for good luck and protection where ever it developed.
For what it is worth i also agree that the dragon on the first hilt does not look like any Chinese dragon i have ever seen. I would also think the swastika made it's way to the Malay world through Hindu influences more than Chinese. Certainly Chinese influences have made themselve evident, but i don't think this is the case here.

RSWORD · 5th September 2005, 08:33 PM

David

Thank you for the referral and the additional information. You mentioned the design shows up in wall panels several times in the book but are there any keris hilts with this particular design. While I admit I have not handled a ton of keris over the years I have yet to see this pattern in a keris but would love to know there were dozens of examples out there with it so prominently featured as this keris. Also, I appreciate the differences of opinion in regards to the dragon. For me, I am trying to piece together all of the decorative elements on the hilt to better understand it. What do you believe the dragon and the bird represents along with the other decoration?

4th September 2005, 04:14 AM	#2
John Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Land below the wind Posts: 135	Rsword, just looking at the swastika design in isolation, the Chinese influence/architecture of design appears to be there, I have to now agree. In looking at the swastika on the scabbard again, the lines look uncannily similar and about 45 degrees gradient similar to that of the hilts so I guess you're right in saying you're not convinced the Chinese influence ain't there based on the similarities with your example. But again, another superficial view on my part.

4th September 2005, 06:36 AM	#3
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	I would like to refer you all to the book Spirit of Wood. Examples of the use of both the swastika and the endless knot pattern in Malay culture can be seen there. Pg. 45 shows ventilation panels in the walls of Masjid Wadi Husin at Telok Manok. The caption states that "the swastika was commonly adopted in Malay culture as a symbol of protection." Pg. 78 also shows another wall from this ancient mosque which also incorporates the "endless knot" as a window panel. BTW, swastikas are to be found in cultures all around the world, including Amerindian. While it is most likely the swastika was imported into the Malay world it should be noted that it seems to have developed independently in many parts of the world.Generally it held the same symbolism as a solar energy for good luck and protection where ever it developed. For what it is worth i also agree that the dragon on the first hilt does not look like any Chinese dragon i have ever seen. I would also think the swastika made it's way to the Malay world through Hindu influences more than Chinese. Certainly Chinese influences have made themselve evident, but i don't think this is the case here.

5th September 2005, 08:33 PM	#4
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,087	David Thank you for the referral and the additional information. You mentioned the design shows up in wall panels several times in the book but are there any keris hilts with this particular design. While I admit I have not handled a ton of keris over the years I have yet to see this pattern in a keris but would love to know there were dozens of examples out there with it so prominently featured as this keris. Also, I appreciate the differences of opinion in regards to the dragon. For me, I am trying to piece together all of the decorative elements on the hilt to better understand it. What do you believe the dragon and the bird represents along with the other decoration?