New Keris/Keris baru

A. G. Maisey · 3rd June 2012, 05:45 AM

Ariel you have raised some seemingly interesting questions here, and I'll do my best to respond. My responses are interpolated.

I remember an anecdote from Gardner's book how he repeatedly switched the handles of kerises from different areas and showed them to the same indonesian experts. Needless to say, they faithfully attributed the same blade with different handles to the origin of the handle.

Gardner did not claim that he showed the kerises concerned to experts, nor did he show them to Indonesians, he sought the opinion of a number of Malay people, logical, as he was working in old British Malaya during the colonial era. What he says is that these people seem to be guided by the shape of the hilt and the scabbard. The same thing would happen in Jawa if you only consulted ordinary people, and in fact to name a complete keris in accordance with its dress is the correct approach, for example, if we have a Javanese keris with Bugis blade, it is named as a Javanese keris, it is only when we draw the keris and begin the process of appraisal that we will designate the blade as Bugis.

In this matter, there is another factor:- Gardner was classifying blades as:-

Northern Malay or Patani, Rembau, Jawa, Bugis, Sumatra.

When we are dealing with the Javanese, or more properly the Surakarta system of blade classification that is known as tangguh, we are only dealing with blades made in the Land of Jawa. Blades made on the Island of Jawa, but outside the Land of Jawa, do not even get a mention, let alone blades from other locations.

Then there is another factor:-

the indigenous person and the white man.

Malay and Indonesian peoples will invariably give an answer that they believe the questioner expects, if that questioner is either an outsider, or a person of higher status. In these societies you do not get an honest answer until you are inside the society, and inside a family. This practice was even more widespread in colonial times than it is today. If Gardner presented a complete keris in Javanese dress, but with a Bugis blade, even if the person he asked recognised it for what it was, he would be very unlikely to provide an opinion that varied from the obvious, because on the face of it, it was a Javanese keris, and he would assume that his societal superior (Mr. Gardner) would be expecting to be told it was Javanese.

I am also puzzled by the fact that neither Frey's nor Ghiringhelli's books ever mention or even discuss the potential ages of the kerises presented there, - obviously, the most outstanding examples of the genre. Instead, they repeatedly mention purely esthetic features of particular kerises, including wood coloring, quality of carvings, elegance of jewelry etc.

The Frey and Ghiringelli books were written by people from western cultures, for people from western cultures. I corresponded with Edward Frey, and I can say with certainty that the keris was only one of his interests. He could not read nor speak Indonesian nor Javanese, he had only a very superficial understanding of the culture, and although he may (I am uncertain) have heard of tangguh, it is an absolute certainty that he did not have even the vaguest understanding of it. He wrote a good beginner's book for a western readership.

The First Invincible Keris book written by Vanna and Mario Ghiringelli is a good basic identification index, once again written for western collectors.

The second Invincible Keris book, written by Vanna Ghiringelli adopts a more in depth approach, which is indicative of the greater depth of knowledge in the western collecting community in 2007, as compared to 1991, but it is still a book that reflects a western collector's perspective, rather than a perspective that would be recognised by a Javanese ahli keris.

All these books have value to a collector, especially a new collector, but they do not even begin to impart a Javanese understanding, the understanding that is provided is an understanding for western collectors, which is fine, but what I am touching on in my writing is an understanding that is closer to the way the keris is understood in Jawa.

Since as Mr. Maisey stipulated that it is all about money,

Yes, it is all about money, and since I am writing about the Surakarta system of blade classification that is known as "tangguh", the "it" concerned is that system. The tangguh system of blade classification is all about money.

one can recall that a heavily patinated and pockmarked authentic crusader's sword lacking original handle and scabbard would fetch infinitely more interest and money from professional collectors than an outstanding and complete 20th century rendition of the same.

This analogy is not relevant. I am talking about a unique system of belief that only has any meaning within its originating society. This system has nothing at all to do with crusader's swords or the way in which collectors in the western world may regard those swords.

Would it be correct to say that, unlike all other fields of weapon studies and in the absense of inscribed and authenticated dating and signature, the field of indonesian kerises is largely "art appreciation" rather than historical study of weapons? Is keris more in league with, say, netsuke rather than with katana?

The study of the keris may appear to fit within the envelope of "weapon study", but in fact only a small part of keris study involves the weapon function. There are a number of facets that need to be addressed when one sets out to learn the keris, its place in history as a weapon is one of those facets, however, of far greater importance in coming to an understanding of the keris are the societal and cultural aspects. Art is one of these aspects.

For somebody new to the study of the keris perhaps the most useful approach is begin with a study of culture, history, language, society, before becoming too involved in trying to understand the keris, which is the blossom of a culture.If all one wishes to do is to collect the object, but without attempting to gain an understanding of it, that is an equally valid approach, but in this case it is possibly best not to try to do more than simply identify and catalogue.

dbhmgb · 3rd June 2012, 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

For somebody new to the study of the keris perhaps the most useful approach is begin with a study of culture, history, language, society, before becoming too involved in trying to understand the keris, which is the blossom of a culture.

This quotes sums it up quite well. This thought has been hovering in the back of my mind and now it's been clarified. The cultural aspect of the keris is what first attracted me and then I started focusing on the object as opposed all that goes into making keris what it is. This is no small undertaking, but I see how it can bring rewards beyond just an appreciation of the keris. Thank you, Alan.

A. G. Maisey · 3rd June 2012, 11:28 PM

Ariel, I can understand your frustration, or disappointment in finding that keris are not quite as easy to get a handle on as perhaps all other forms of edged weaponry. Yes, it does take a lifetime of consistent pursuit of knowledge to come close to the core of keris understanding, but in this respect the keris is no different from any other field of study:- competent surgeons do not emerge from university with the necessary skills to carry out successful brain surgery; competent engineers cannot design massive bridges after 5 years of uni and a bachelors degree. It takes time to gather skill and knowledge. Keris study is not even in the same street as surgery or engineering, but it still takes time and commitment to reach a level where there is a degree of understanding --- and there are different levels of understanding.

I have an old friend who is now 91 and in a nursing home. He began collecting weaponry when he was still in his teens. He has been regarded as the doyen of Australian eastern edged weapon collectors for perhaps 40 or 50 years. He can no longer collect, and in fact his collection is in storage, but for about the last 30 years of his collecting life his principal focus was the keris. He loved them. He knew almost nothing about them, he could differentiate on the basis of major societies --- Javanese, Balinese, Bugis --- he could tell the difference between Solo dress and Jogja dress, but that was about all. He had complete access to whatever I might have known at any time, but he was simply not interested in learning any of that:- his focus was the object itself, not everything that that goes with it. He was an old fashioned collector, pure and simple. He didn't need the cultural approach. I felt that he deprived himself of a great experience because of his disinterest, but he traveled a different road to the one I was on. He went to Bali once. Hated it. Couldn't get home quick enough.

Its horses for courses Ariel. One can collect for the sake of collecting, and simply appreciate the object, or one can treat the object as the key to a broader understanding. No way is right, no way is wrong, its a matter of personal taste.

ariel · 3rd June 2012, 11:37 PM

Thanks!
We are in complete agreement.

Paul Duffy · 7th June 2012, 12:27 AM

Alan, Ariel,
I also thank both of you for an interesting discussion.I came to collecting keris as a collector of weapons.My interest was in the skill of working with metals to produce a piece that was so interesting.The blade was the centre piece of the keris,but the sheath and handle also came together to produce a work of art.
After seeing many examples I am still fascinated by the skill involved in planning and making a keris.I think this has been part of my fascination, which has led me into studying the culture and history of Indonesia.There are many segements of the culture and their religion which draw me into looking for examples of keris.
This then leads to wanting more information on how the keris fitted in with the society of Java,and the islands in earlier times.
Alan,your example of the elderly collector here in Australia is perfect.A good man, and a wonderful collection of keris and edged weapons.He was also a willing mentor for young collectors, and I agree he wasn't interested in studying the culture.
I don't know if he saw his collection as comprising works of art,but neither did he appreciate the music of Bob Dylon or Bill Frisell.
I must practice loading photos onto the site,the illustrations and comments about fakes etc have been interesting.

ariel · 8th June 2012, 12:56 PM

Are Groneman's and Holstein's books a good source of education for a novice?

David · 8th June 2012, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Are Groneman's and Holstein's books a good source of education for a novice?

I am not familiar with the Holstein book, but i think Groneman's book (the latest re-issue) is well work acquiring. It is extremely well produced and illustrated. That is not to say that it is completely accurate, but i have yet to find any book about keris completely accurate.

It's starting to sound like you might be getting more serious about keris collecting Ariel.

A. G. Maisey · 8th June 2012, 02:00 PM

I've never seen Holstein so I cannot comment. Groneman I find interesting from a historical perspective.

For somebody with an interest in the culture of the keris I believe that the best book to begin with is Visible and Invisible Realms-Margaret J.Wiener.

For somebody more interested in the physical entity itself, The World of the Javanese Keris-Garrett and Bronwen Solyom, and The Kris-An Earthly Approach to a Cosmic Symbol-David van Duuren.

For somebody who wishes to explore the fields of knowledge which embrace the keris:- Krisses-A critical Bibliography-David van Duuren.

Here is a link to a reading list that is perhaps as good as anywhere to begin the accumulation of printed matter dealing with the keris:-

http://www.kerisattosanaji.com/kerisinformation.html

you will find publishing details of the books I mention in this list.

ariel · 27th June 2012, 03:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Are Groneman's and Holstein's books a good source of education for a novice?

I got the Groneman's book. Essentially, it is the translation of the original one into English, with all the original illustrations. Only the editors provided a lot of additional gorgeous color photographs from several Dutch museums and from private collectors. I guess the meaning of a "good keris" became a bit more understandable to me :-)

They are all with provenance, all came to the Netherlands al least in the beginning of the 20th century, with totally intact blades, a lot of gold, gems and even diamonds etc.

What is surprising to me, and totally consistent with what Alan said earlier, none have even the slightest attempt to pinpoint their age. Being a collector of other weapons, I am totally flabbergasted: such an omission would be unthinkable in the field of Middle Eastern/Indian/ Caucasian weapons, and AFAIK, the Chinese/Japanese/ and even European collectors would agree with me.

Oh boy.... You the "kerisologists" are way, way different from the rest of us.

I am still very uneasy with the idea of collecting ethnic weapons that were manufactured yesterday simply because they were made according to old traditions, or have a neatly carved handle, or a scabbard made of a particularly good wood, or putting a 500 y.o. weapon on the same scale of importance ( not necessarily monetary, but historic) with a 100 y.o. one....

Taking into account that keris was largely a ceremonial/magic object, perhaps what I am collecting is " historical weapons", while you are into " indonesian art/craft/ethnography". That was exactly what Groneman was trying to preserve when he wrote his articles.

Different languages, different criteria..... Fascinating...

3rd June 2012, 05:45 AM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,056	Ariel you have raised some seemingly interesting questions here, and I'll do my best to respond. My responses are interpolated. I remember an anecdote from Gardner's book how he repeatedly switched the handles of kerises from different areas and showed them to the same indonesian experts. Needless to say, they faithfully attributed the same blade with different handles to the origin of the handle. Gardner did not claim that he showed the kerises concerned to experts, nor did he show them to Indonesians, he sought the opinion of a number of Malay people, logical, as he was working in old British Malaya during the colonial era. What he says is that these people seem to be guided by the shape of the hilt and the scabbard. The same thing would happen in Jawa if you only consulted ordinary people, and in fact to name a complete keris in accordance with its dress is the correct approach, for example, if we have a Javanese keris with Bugis blade, it is named as a Javanese keris, it is only when we draw the keris and begin the process of appraisal that we will designate the blade as Bugis. In this matter, there is another factor:- Gardner was classifying blades as:- Northern Malay or Patani, Rembau, Jawa, Bugis, Sumatra. When we are dealing with the Javanese, or more properly the Surakarta system of blade classification that is known as tangguh, we are only dealing with blades made in the Land of Jawa. Blades made on the Island of Jawa, but outside the Land of Jawa, do not even get a mention, let alone blades from other locations. Then there is another factor:- the indigenous person and the white man. Malay and Indonesian peoples will invariably give an answer that they believe the questioner expects, if that questioner is either an outsider, or a person of higher status. In these societies you do not get an honest answer until you are inside the society, and inside a family. This practice was even more widespread in colonial times than it is today. If Gardner presented a complete keris in Javanese dress, but with a Bugis blade, even if the person he asked recognised it for what it was, he would be very unlikely to provide an opinion that varied from the obvious, because on the face of it, it was a Javanese keris, and he would assume that his societal superior (Mr. Gardner) would be expecting to be told it was Javanese. I am also puzzled by the fact that neither Frey's nor Ghiringhelli's books ever mention or even discuss the potential ages of the kerises presented there, - obviously, the most outstanding examples of the genre. Instead, they repeatedly mention purely esthetic features of particular kerises, including wood coloring, quality of carvings, elegance of jewelry etc. The Frey and Ghiringelli books were written by people from western cultures, for people from western cultures. I corresponded with Edward Frey, and I can say with certainty that the keris was only one of his interests. He could not read nor speak Indonesian nor Javanese, he had only a very superficial understanding of the culture, and although he may (I am uncertain) have heard of tangguh, it is an absolute certainty that he did not have even the vaguest understanding of it. He wrote a good beginner's book for a western readership. The First Invincible Keris book written by Vanna and Mario Ghiringelli is a good basic identification index, once again written for western collectors. The second Invincible Keris book, written by Vanna Ghiringelli adopts a more in depth approach, which is indicative of the greater depth of knowledge in the western collecting community in 2007, as compared to 1991, but it is still a book that reflects a western collector's perspective, rather than a perspective that would be recognised by a Javanese ahli keris. All these books have value to a collector, especially a new collector, but they do not even begin to impart a Javanese understanding, the understanding that is provided is an understanding for western collectors, which is fine, but what I am touching on in my writing is an understanding that is closer to the way the keris is understood in Jawa. Since as Mr. Maisey stipulated that it is all about money, Yes, it is all about money, and since I am writing about the Surakarta system of blade classification that is known as "tangguh", the "it" concerned is that system. The tangguh system of blade classification is all about money. one can recall that a heavily patinated and pockmarked authentic crusader's sword lacking original handle and scabbard would fetch infinitely more interest and money from professional collectors than an outstanding and complete 20th century rendition of the same. This analogy is not relevant. I am talking about a unique system of belief that only has any meaning within its originating society. This system has nothing at all to do with crusader's swords or the way in which collectors in the western world may regard those swords. Would it be correct to say that, unlike all other fields of weapon studies and in the absense of inscribed and authenticated dating and signature, the field of indonesian kerises is largely "art appreciation" rather than historical study of weapons? Is keris more in league with, say, netsuke rather than with katana? The study of the keris may appear to fit within the envelope of "weapon study", but in fact only a small part of keris study involves the weapon function. There are a number of facets that need to be addressed when one sets out to learn the keris, its place in history as a weapon is one of those facets, however, of far greater importance in coming to an understanding of the keris are the societal and cultural aspects. Art is one of these aspects. For somebody new to the study of the keris perhaps the most useful approach is begin with a study of culture, history, language, society, before becoming too involved in trying to understand the keris, which is the blossom of a culture.If all one wishes to do is to collect the object, but without attempting to gain an understanding of it, that is an equally valid approach, but in this case it is possibly best not to try to do more than simply identify and catalogue. Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 3rd June 2012 at 06:48 AM. Reason: clarification

3rd June 2012, 11:28 PM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,056	Ariel, I can understand your frustration, or disappointment in finding that keris are not quite as easy to get a handle on as perhaps all other forms of edged weaponry. Yes, it does take a lifetime of consistent pursuit of knowledge to come close to the core of keris understanding, but in this respect the keris is no different from any other field of study:- competent surgeons do not emerge from university with the necessary skills to carry out successful brain surgery; competent engineers cannot design massive bridges after 5 years of uni and a bachelors degree. It takes time to gather skill and knowledge. Keris study is not even in the same street as surgery or engineering, but it still takes time and commitment to reach a level where there is a degree of understanding --- and there are different levels of understanding. I have an old friend who is now 91 and in a nursing home. He began collecting weaponry when he was still in his teens. He has been regarded as the doyen of Australian eastern edged weapon collectors for perhaps 40 or 50 years. He can no longer collect, and in fact his collection is in storage, but for about the last 30 years of his collecting life his principal focus was the keris. He loved them. He knew almost nothing about them, he could differentiate on the basis of major societies --- Javanese, Balinese, Bugis --- he could tell the difference between Solo dress and Jogja dress, but that was about all. He had complete access to whatever I might have known at any time, but he was simply not interested in learning any of that:- his focus was the object itself, not everything that that goes with it. He was an old fashioned collector, pure and simple. He didn't need the cultural approach. I felt that he deprived himself of a great experience because of his disinterest, but he traveled a different road to the one I was on. He went to Bali once. Hated it. Couldn't get home quick enough. Its horses for courses Ariel. One can collect for the sake of collecting, and simply appreciate the object, or one can treat the object as the key to a broader understanding. No way is right, no way is wrong, its a matter of personal taste.

3rd June 2012, 11:37 PM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Thanks! We are in complete agreement.

7th June 2012, 12:27 AM	#5
Paul Duffy Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 31	Alan, Ariel, I also thank both of you for an interesting discussion.I came to collecting keris as a collector of weapons.My interest was in the skill of working with metals to produce a piece that was so interesting.The blade was the centre piece of the keris,but the sheath and handle also came together to produce a work of art. After seeing many examples I am still fascinated by the skill involved in planning and making a keris.I think this has been part of my fascination, which has led me into studying the culture and history of Indonesia.There are many segements of the culture and their religion which draw me into looking for examples of keris. This then leads to wanting more information on how the keris fitted in with the society of Java,and the islands in earlier times. Alan,your example of the elderly collector here in Australia is perfect.A good man, and a wonderful collection of keris and edged weapons.He was also a willing mentor for young collectors, and I agree he wasn't interested in studying the culture. I don't know if he saw his collection as comprising works of art,but neither did he appreciate the music of Bob Dylon or Bill Frisell. I must practice loading photos onto the site,the illustrations and comments about fakes etc have been interesting.

8th June 2012, 12:56 PM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Are Groneman's and Holstein's books a good source of education for a novice?

8th June 2012, 02:00 PM	#8
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,056	I've never seen Holstein so I cannot comment. Groneman I find interesting from a historical perspective. For somebody with an interest in the culture of the keris I believe that the best book to begin with is Visible and Invisible Realms-Margaret J.Wiener. For somebody more interested in the physical entity itself, The World of the Javanese Keris-Garrett and Bronwen Solyom, and The Kris-An Earthly Approach to a Cosmic Symbol-David van Duuren. For somebody who wishes to explore the fields of knowledge which embrace the keris:- Krisses-A critical Bibliography-David van Duuren. Here is a link to a reading list that is perhaps as good as anywhere to begin the accumulation of printed matter dealing with the keris:- http://www.kerisattosanaji.com/kerisinformation.html you will find publishing details of the books I mention in this list.