Another eBay Keris

[dbhmgb]

Greetings all,

This auction was pointed out to me by another member of the forum and I figured that, with a low starting price and cheap shipping, it was worth a try. I was the only bidder and I won. I received it today and it's actually, aside from the wrongko, in pretty good shape. The blade is already in pineapple juice to clear up the minor rusting.

Here's the pix:

[Hartadi]

Congratulation for lucky buyer ! Love that pendokok style

[dbhmgb]

Originally Posted by Hartadi

Congratulation for lucky buyer ! Love that pendokok style

Thank you Hartadi! I think it is a good example of a Bugis keris. It will be interesting to see the blade cleaned and have the members here give me an idea of what the pamor is. The hilt and pendongkok (which, I too, really like) are in very good shape.

As for the sheath, it is very interesting. The size is small compared to my others and shaped differently than my other Bugis sheath. It is a shame it's in such bad shape, which raises another question - what to do about that?

Hartadi - I checked your website and your collection is amazing!

[Jean]

A Bugis Riau keris or from another origin? The blade is a little too long as compared to the sheath but the fitting seems original. A bargain for 40 USD anyway, congrats!
Regards

[dbhmgb]

Originally Posted by Jean

A Bugis Riau keris or from another origin? The blade is a little too long as compared to the sheath but the fitting seems original. A bargain for 40 USD anyway, congrats!
Regards

If you could see more clearly in the pictures, it appears that the sheath may have been longer, perhaps there was a separate buntut?

[Gustav]

Blade is a fairly typical South Sumatran one, perhaps one still can see strong West Java influences here. I wouldn't call this blade Bugis.

The sheath form also is South/ towards Central Sumatran. It resembles much the old scabbard style, from which possibly both later Javanese and Bugis forms (and Palembang) were derived. Most probably Minangkabau? Not much is really known about South/Central Sumatran forms, and it seems it will for ever stay so. Similar form is possible also in Northern Peninsula Malay regions.

Most probably the only visualy acceptable way to do some restauration would be to reconstruct the missing lower part of Gandar, and then hide the new material with rattan bindings (there probably still are some signs of old bindings). I think, you can find a recipe how to stain rattan (to look it old) here in the forum.

[dbhmgb]

Originally Posted by Gustav

Blade is a fairly typical South Sumatran one, perhaps one still can see strong West Java influences here. I wouldn't call this blade Bugis.

The sheath form also is South/ towards Central Sumatran. It resembles much the old scabbard style, from which possibly both later Javanese and Bugis forms (and Palembang) were derived. Most probably Minangkabau? Not much is really known about South/Central Sumatran forms, and it seems it will for ever stay so. Similar form is possible also in Northern Peninsula Malay regions.

Most probably the only visualy acceptable way to do some restauration would be to reconstruct the missing lower part of Gandar, and then hide the new material with rattan bindings (there probably still are some signs of old bindings). I think, you can find a recipe how to stain rattan (to look it old) here in the forum.

Thank you Gustav. This is why I love this site.

I said it was Bugis using an uneducated guess - the information you provide here is very enlightening! It seems that this keris has become even more interesting.

I will research the rattan suggestion - thanks again.

Dan

[Sajen]

Hello Dan,

nice Keris, congrats! Agree with Gustav that this keris is maybe from South/Central Sumatra and maybe a Minang keris.
Agree with you that there was a buntut at the end of the sheath. A restauration of the sheath is not easy but possible.

Regards,

Detlef

[Jean]

The hilt is Bugis but it may have been replaced. See a similar wrongko with the typical long neck (the bottom stem was probably replaced).
Regards

[dbhmgb]

Originally Posted by Jean

The hilt is Bugis but it may have been replaced. See a similar wrongko with the typical long neck (the bottom stem was probably replaced).
Regards

Jean,

Yes, remarkably similar. I, too, noticed the difference in the bottom stem and guessed that it had been replaced at one time.

Thanks!

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by dbhmgb

I, too, noticed the difference in the bottom stem and guessed that it had been replaced at one time.

I think Jean speak about the keris he have shown.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Jean

The hilt is Bugis but it may have been replaced.

Sorry Jean, I disagree in this point. Do you have noticed that this hilt haven't a garuda munkur? And I think that these hilts (kerdas/pangulu) wasn't used only by Bugis keris. Look for example to the kris disc from Jensen where you can see some pangulu hilts in various designs in the chapters about Sumatra.

Regards,

Detlef

[dbhmgb]

Originally Posted by Sajen

I think Jean speak about the keris he have shown.

Oh, okay, I see - but the same is true of the one I have...

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by dbhmgb

Oh, okay, I see - but the same is true of the one I have...

Yes, of course it is a different wood like most of the time but I don't think that it is a replacement.

Regards,

Detlef

[Gustav]

This is how the stem of your sheath most probably looked like, Dan. I also don't think it is a replacement.

[dbhmgb]

Detlef & Gustav - Thank you! I get it now - not replaced.

Thank you, Gustav, for the picture - that is very helpful! I just inspected my sheath and it does appear that it may have been wrapped much like the one in the picture.

[Rick]

Well done .
Hard to get a nice piece on ebay these days .

Forty bucks !

[dbhmgb]

Thanks Rick! Believe me, no one is as surprised as I am. Usually, I only win the "Buy It Now" auctions on eBay.

[Jean]

Originally Posted by Gustav

This is how the stem of your sheath most probably looked like, Dan. I also don't think it is a replacement.

Hi Gustav,
Can you show us the blade please?
You say that "the sheath form is South/ toward Central Sumatran", which area do you mean exactly?
Regards

[Gustav]

Jean, I can't show the blade, becouse it isn't mine. If I remember correctly, I have been told it is an untypical Chenok blade from Northern Malay regions (Singora). As I said before, this sheath form is to be found also there, sometimes with coteng hilts, see Dave Henkel's site: http://kerisarchipelago.150m.com/webpage/Tajong2.htm

Please note, the pendokok in the picture from my last post is also very similar, if not directly the same type.

As I stated in my first post, there probably are traces of rattan binding still visible on the stem, which Dan confirmed.

That's why I posted this picture as a sample how Dan's sheath most probably looked like.

Regarding the exact area, I already wrote: "Most probably Minangkabau? Not much is really known about South/Central Sumatran forms, and it seems it will for ever stay so." I don't have heard about a serious research regarding keris in these regions. As soon as we are moving out from Palembang, we don't have nothing really supported - regarding Lampung, regarding Palembang towards Pegunungan Barisan, regarding Bengkulu, regarding Indrapura, regarding Palembang towards Jambi.

Most of what we can recognize in this part of Suamtra is a changing level of Palembang influence (which is again influenced by West Java or and later Mataram) or direct West Java influence regarding Sumatran South-West coast; - interacting with Bugis influence. Whe can perhaps guess about the region using this changing level. This is better then nothing, yet not really serious.

Regarding similar sheath (and blade) style on Peninsula: keris do travel, as do the people. We know there are serious old Minangkabau populations on Peninsula, we know that Minangkabau keris was much appreciated on Peninsula, and we know about ties between Minangkabau and Peninsular royal houses. And that's unfortunately almost all.

[Jean]

Thank you Gustav, personally I don't recognize the kris from Dan as Minang (blade & wrongko) but I have no better alternative to propose . We know that many Sumatran krisses are mixed pieces but this one seems original.
I visited West Sumatra (Padang and Bukittinggi) some years ago and saw a number of krisses there but do not remember a similar one. My only observation is that according to Jensen this style of wrongko is derived from the old Makassar/ Goa krisses so it should logically be found in Bugis influenced areas of Sumatra or Malaysia, i.e. costal areas.
The input from our Singapore members would be welcome.
Regards

[Gustav]

Originally Posted by Jean

Thank you Gustav, personally I don't recognize the kris from Dan as Minang (blade & wrongko)

Jean, I never said this blade is Minang. I said: "Blade is a fairly typical South Sumatran one, perhaps one still can see strong West Java influences here. I wouldn't call this blade Bugis."

Originally Posted by Jean

My only observation is that according to Jensen this style of wrongko is derived from the old Makassar/ Goa krisses so it should logically be found in Bugis influenced areas of Sumatra or Malaysia, i.e. costal areas.

Yes, and one of the variants, according to Jensen, can be found on Minangkabau keris. Of course, one should notice, Jensens attributions are sometimes pretty questionable. According to Jensen, we also should believe, Minangkabau produced only small sized Bahari and 3 Luk blades.

[Gustav]

Regarding the similar blade styles: here is Dan's keris (Sumatra?), Paul's Coteng (Peninsula) and a typical Palembang blade. Note the slender Luks and thick Gonjo.

[Gustav]

And here comes Paul's Coteng in sheath and Dan's sheath:

[dbhmgb]

This has become very interesting and informative!

So, the best guess is South Sumatra, is that correct?

What is interesting is that I just put it back in the pineapple bath after a good scrubbing and I noticed when I had it out how similar the pamor is to the Palembang example.

Is there a best guess as to the age of the keris?

Thanks!

Dan

[Jean]

Originally Posted by Gustav

According to Jensen, we also should believe, Minangkabau produced only small sized Bahari and 3 Luk blades.

Gustav,
Frankly speaking, this is also what I observed locally but in absence of other references I am not pretending that this is the thruth (many Minang krisses were confiscated by the Dutch after the 19th century civil war).
I attach the pictures of 2 representative specimens, the sampir of some Minang keris looks like the one from Dan indeed, but not at all the stem (often slimmer and silver decorated, and with a short neck).

[Gustav]

And here some more "brothers".

At first one mentioned by BluErf here, in post #3:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...light=liongate

The sheath and pendokok are the same form, hilt a little more elaborate in carving, yet the similar style. There most probably is a trace of a sleeve covering the joint line between sampir and batang (similar sleeves are also found on Minang sheeths among others). BluErf attributed it to Sumatra back then.

Then there is a similar hilt form Dave Henkel posted here:

http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000847.html

He wrote: "Another rare form. Sumatran most likely but God knows where. Still its very much a Bugis keris." Here I disagree, becouse Gonjo is not that of a common Bugis keris. It is completely straight and has signs of a small Tungkakan (as part of Greneng).

For comparison a Minangkabau Pangulu hilt. Here I should add, most probably Dan's hilt has lost much of its original surface with the time, also the Minangkabau hilt. They look well-worne, but one still sees traces of carvings on Dan's hilt.

[Jean]

Originally Posted by Gustav

For comparison a Minangkabau Pangulu hilt. Here I should add, most probably Dan's hilt has lost much of its original surface with the time, also the Minangkabau hilt. They look well-worne, but one still sees traces of carvings on Dan's hilt.

Gustav,
I fully agree with you that Dan's hilt seems to have lost much of its original surface with time (including the crest), for me it is a worn-out Sumatran Bugis style hilt but not Minang as its shape is too compact/short for a Minang hilt.
Attached is the picture of a small Sumatran kris with an old Bugis style hilt made from black horn and with a smooth surface also (no crest). The sampir in unusual style was recently replaced.
Regards

[dbhmgb]

Okay - after cleaning up the hilt, pendokok and blade, here are the results. Any suggestions on the pamor?

[Jean]

Originally Posted by dbhmgb

Okay - after cleaning up the hilt, pendokok and blade, here are the results. Any suggestions on the pamor?

Hi Dan,
No suggestion on the pamor (common style) but I agree with others that the blade is not Bugis and probably from South Sumatra. Nice pendokok! (but not from South Sumatra IMO)
Regards