Another cup hilt rapier

[Chris Evans]

Fernando,

Thanks for posting the measurements.

The blade seems a bit short for a rapier. Did you take it from the cup or the quillons?

Cheers
Chris

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Chris Evans

... The blade seems a bit short for a rapier. Did you take it from the cup or the quillons? ...

From the cup; from the quillons will be 92,5 cms.

[Chris Evans]

Hi Fernando,

Originally Posted by fernando

From the cup; from the quillons will be 92,5 cms.

That's more like it - Corresponds to a transition era rapier's length.

Cheers
Chris

[cornelistromp]

is 100-112cm allover not the usual lenght for this type of mid 17thc cuphilt rapier?

[fernando]

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

is 100-112cm allover not the usual lenght for this type of mid 17thc cuphilt rapier?

This is an interesting issue.
My knowledge of these things is less than empirical, but judging by the residual information i have, the length of (these) swords was a controversial matter in their period. The longer the sword the greater ascendent you would have in confrontations, as enabling you to keep your adversary at distance.
On the other hand, during the XVI century (more than one) Monarchs have established the maximum length of swords ... not just the blade but the whole weapon, precisely because of the reach.
Five palms (span) were the limit, this corresponding to 110 cms. Obviously this was "only the law", as seven palm swords, so called fora de marca (off mark), were quite popular. Eventually as a way to escape law pursuit, plenty of these sword blades found their way to Asia (India), to be mounted in Patas and Firangis.
In an extreme situation, swords of seven palms (154 cms) only of blade have appeared; other examples could even be stretched, as to show a legal length in normal circumstances and only be extended for a fight.
But judging by a book i have with various examples and considering the practical need for the contemporary common man, the length range you present seems quite reasonable to me; but again, i am not even close from expertise.
I am posting here some "off mark" rapiers, shown in the book AS ARMAS E OS BARÕES, by Eduardo Nobre. The example on the right measures 153 cms. .... with a blade of 132,5 cms by 25 m/m.
Eventually the two rapiers i am presently posting for discussion belonged in this author's collection and are depicted in this book.

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[fernando]

Culminating with a few contacts with qualified persons, including those who favour us with their 'unfrequent' presence, i have visited an arms historian/collector the past week end.
The explanation for the decoration on the blade is the following:
It is in fact the depiction of a snake, used by the Milanese sword smiths, but one of those copied all over through time; therefore not a viable sign to define a specific provenance for this or other sword.
As a reminder i was called attention to the emblem of the famous Milanese Alfa Romeo automobile factory, where the snake is present.
This symbol, originated in the Milanese house of Visconti, would have its full representation with a crowned "snake" swalowing a child (prince) in his mouth. The inferrement is that the horizontal V in current blade decorations is the snake mouth.
Needless to say that, once we learn the keyword, the Internet has lots of information on this symbol.
Concerning the mark punch on the blade forte, no progress has been reached ... unfortunately .

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[fernando]

Another sword i remembered having seen at a neighbour collector, with the snake and its mouth ... and other traditional symbols


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