Pala Kilic Wootz? with European Hilt.

Jim McDougall · 16th May 2012, 11:31 PM

In checking in Wagner, p.420 (plate 50) shows the M1845 (much like the second example you show still in the Higgins.This has the same scroll basket guard and stepped pommel, but closer scrolled terminal with no parallel slots for swordknot.

P.422 (plate 52) confirms that your hilt is the M1850 which has these slots.

It seems that the M1845 swords had curved blade with a distinct yelman very much like oriental blades have, though of course not as pronounced as this pala type profile. The M1850 blade seems to have been of the more European profile without the yelman.

What is curious is the pommels on both these patterns have the stepped pommels, while yours seems to have a smooth 'birdhead'.

Ferdinand I apparantly abdicated in 1848 to quell political unrest in the revolutionary events that year, and his nephew Franz Joseph took power. Could the F in the cypher as well represent him? He was in power into the 20th century. It certainly does complicate matters with a device or letters representing an Austrio-Hungarian monarch along with etched Islamic motif on the blade.
The blade does not necessary have to be original to the hilt of course and in Wagner there is one example shown with earlier blade paired with later hilt , noted as that of irregular Austrian unit officer and suggesting heirloom blade.
These and many of the swords illustrated in Wagner (1967)are in the Military History Museum in Prague, and when I checked with them on several back in the 1990s they were still there. Possibly thier staff might have more information.

Norman McCormick · 17th May 2012, 10:45 AM

Hi Jim,
Many thanks for your continued efforts to shed light on this sword. My photographs were not comprehensive and I apologise for giving the wrong impression re the pommel, it is stepped as this quick photo shows. The Prague connection seems worth pursuing and once I have taken some better photographs I will investigate that avenue further. Thanks once again for your interest.
My Regards,
Norman.

17th May 2012, 10:45 AM	#2
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,613	Hi Jim, Many thanks for your continued efforts to shed light on this sword. My photographs were not comprehensive and I apologise for giving the wrong impression re the pommel, it is stepped as this quick photo shows. The Prague connection seems worth pursuing and once I have taken some better photographs I will investigate that avenue further. Thanks once again for your interest. My Regards, Norman. Attached Images

16th May 2012, 11:31 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	In checking in Wagner, p.420 (plate 50) shows the M1845 (much like the second example you show still in the Higgins.This has the same scroll basket guard and stepped pommel, but closer scrolled terminal with no parallel slots for swordknot. P.422 (plate 52) confirms that your hilt is the M1850 which has these slots. It seems that the M1845 swords had curved blade with a distinct yelman very much like oriental blades have, though of course not as pronounced as this pala type profile. The M1850 blade seems to have been of the more European profile without the yelman. What is curious is the pommels on both these patterns have the stepped pommels, while yours seems to have a smooth 'birdhead'. Ferdinand I apparantly abdicated in 1848 to quell political unrest in the revolutionary events that year, and his nephew Franz Joseph took power. Could the F in the cypher as well represent him? He was in power into the 20th century. It certainly does complicate matters with a device or letters representing an Austrio-Hungarian monarch along with etched Islamic motif on the blade. The blade does not necessary have to be original to the hilt of course and in Wagner there is one example shown with earlier blade paired with later hilt , noted as that of irregular Austrian unit officer and suggesting heirloom blade. These and many of the swords illustrated in Wagner (1967)are in the Military History Museum in Prague, and when I checked with them on several back in the 1990s they were still there. Possibly thier staff might have more information.